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Blogger Swanditch said...

Fascinating. Thank you. I will do what I can to spread this fresh information among Buddhists that I know.

I've always found the phenomenon of Westerners taking sides in Buddhist sectarian issues very odd - "You're Hinayana! It's an inferior vehicle!" It would be like modern Chinese getting very worked up about Calvinism or something.

Friday, July 03, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Modern Chinese are getting very worked up about Western Neoliberalism, so perhaps it's not so far fetched?

People just take sides because that is how we experience our identity. It's a primate thing.

Saturday, July 04, 2015

Blogger Greg Pandatshang said...

I at first misread what you wrote as "Drewes argues against the use of the term Mahāyāna Buddhism largely because different scholars have used it in widely varying ways." I suppose that's accurate, too. Mahāyāna and Hīnayāna have been pressed into service, emically and etically, to describe tangentially-related categories operating at different times. It's probably pointless to have one definition for them or to find one term to replace them with. In the 21st century, Mahāyāna contrasts with Pāli Buddhism, and you are certainly right to suggest that that is a cultural/regional distinction more than anything.

The only problem I have with the term Mainstream Buddhism is that it could be confusing in some situations. Certainly, a casual reader might be confused by the idea that what is now the normal religious practice in Tibet, China, Japan, Korea, etc. is not "Mainstream". Leaving that aside on the assumption that no perfect terminology will solve this riddle for a reader who remains casual, I think "Mainstream" is fine for talking about a particular time and place, but we still need to be cautious because it's very hard to say when and how it became the mainstream and also a little vague as to when it stopped being the mainstream. We just have to accept that the edges are a bit fuzzy. It certainly wouldn't make sense to insist that Theravāda today is "Mainstream Buddhism", but this only emphasises my point that no one term can take on the full weight that Hīnayāna once bore.

The main thing I took from reading Drewes is that there's nothing to early Mahāyāna other than the composition of new canonical-like texts. That is, early Mahāyāna was people who wanted the canon to remain open; early Mahāyāna is synonymous with vedulla. Nagārjuna and the Yogācāraists were a different species, although of course they read and were influenced by some of the vedulla scriptures (I think that's Drewes' position; he didn't have a lot to say about the later philosophical Mahāyānists; I'd be interested to find something where he writes about that phase in more details). The only thing all so-called Mahāyānists have in common is that they all use at least one post-āgama scripture.

Saturday, July 04, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hmm. There were and are people who identified themselves as Mahāyāna (or mahājñāna) Buddhists and I see no reason not to acknowledge that. I see no reason to refer to them as, for example, "so-called". So-called "scholars" maybe! The point that Drewes makes is not that Mahāyāna was somehow "fake", but that our understanding of it was wrong. There is no implied criticism of Mahāyāna - the criticism is of scholars who made conjectures that were unsupported by evidence (though as I say I suspect that emic accounts were the evidence, just that this evidence was unreliable - Buddhists make terrible witnesses to history). Early Mahāyāna was what it was. That's all there is to it. We have to re-adjust our worldview to fit the new facts. Or become irrelevant.

Also be aware that Drewes is only saying that there is no evidence
other than textual production and unlike his predecessors does not speculate beyond that. This means his account is relatively spare. But note my own comments about what is required to sustain textual production. of course there was more to it than simply writing texts, because those dozens or perhaps hundreds of texts continued to be composed and expanded for several centuries. No text survives for centuries without some kind of organisation. It's just that there is no evidence to show us what it was like.

Hīnayāna is a term that should only ever be used in discussions of the history of intra-Buddhist polemics. See my essay Hīnayāna Reprise or Anālayo's article The Hīnayāna Fallacy. The word ought to have the same kind of emotional resonances as "nigger" and to be used with this in mind.

"Mainstream" is an historical term used for discussing Indian Buddhism. Just as when we talk about mainstream economics, or mainstream politics. I will clarify this in the article.

Given that his title is "Early Indian Mahāyāna Buddhism" I don't think Drewes can be faulted for not covering later developments. But then later developments are quite well understood (better attested in documents) and there are plenty of well written accounts of that later history.

Sunday, July 05, 2015

Blogger Greg Pandatshang said...

The only thing I wonder about Hīnayāna is what to call the sections of Tibetan Buddhist tantric teachings that they refer to as Hīnayāna. Although etymologically and historically Hīnayāna is harsh derogative term, in that particular context it is just part of their system. "Never forget the Hīnayāna," Trungpa would sometimes say. I wouldn't know what word to put in place of it.

Sunday, July 05, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

I know. Tibetan Buddhists seem to be the most resistant to not using the term. But surely the obvious substitute here is śrāvakayāna? This is after all what the early Buddhists often called themselves. I think Tibetans also sometimes refer to it as the "path of renunciation" (naiṣkramyapatha?).

Mind you I don't really know what Trungpa might have meant by Hīnayāna - presumably he did not mean take up being a Theravādin!

As we know with other minorities, how we refer to them matters: to us, to them, to third parties.

Sunday, July 05, 2015

Blogger Amod said...

Thanks for this, Jayarava. Excellent food for thought, a lot of stuff I didn't know.

One thing I'm not quite convinced of: the point about the (lack of) significance of the bodhisat(t)va ideal. I don't see any evidence in the Drewes articles that it is as insignificant in the early texts as he claims; the Ugraparipṛcchā Sūtra is quite early and it seems to treat the Mahāyāna as meaning the bodhisattva ideal. It doesn't reject or denigrate the arhat ideal, but presents the bodhisattva ideal as a greater and more demanding path for a select few.

Regarding the early Buddhist texts, do you know texts where the bodhisattva ideal is presented as something that people now should strive to attain (as it is in the Ugra)? Obviously there are bodhisattas in those texts, but I'm not aware of any of them saying we should try to be one.

Tuesday, July 07, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Amod

Drewes's argument is not that the bodhisatva ideal lacks significance at all. It is that the bodhisatva ideal is not the driving force of Mahāyāna. Which he explains is one of the narratives associated with the origins of Mahāyāna. Of course we see evidence of the bodhisatva ideal, but does that amount to everything Mahāyāna stemming from this "new" ideal? Apparently not. Along side the bodhisatva ideal we see many other cultural changes in early Mahāyāna texts that are significant. This was partly the point of Schopen (1975) in which he first makes the argument for what he calls "the cult of the book". Or indeed the whole lay origins/stūpa worship hypothesis that he was arguing against.

One way to look at it is to ask, "Would the bodhisatva ideal appear incongruous in the mouth of a Mainstream Buddhist?" I may be biased, but I don't see that it would. Any Buddhist could espouse the desire to become a bodhisatva and practice assiduously, along the lines of the Urgaparipṛcchā. Simply taking this approach to practice would not make one a Mahāyāna Buddhist, nor would it necessarily lead to other aspects of Mahāyāna, such as "celestial" bodhisatva worship, Pure Lands, buddhakṣetra, etc.

Another of his points is that too many scholars have made claims based on too few texts. For example we can make a point based on the Ugraparipṛcchā, because it is conveniently translated and accessible, but is there any reason to think it is representative of the first wave of Chinese translations (most of which are only available in Chinese)? Drewes argues that when one reads all of the first wave of Chinese translations that Ugraparipṛcchā is just one amongst many. It's important to take the evidence as a whole.

Regarding the origins bodhisattva ideal I could point you to the item at the bottom of the bibliography: The Bodhisattva Ideal: Essays on the Emergence of Mahāyāna. From Dhīvan's review:

"An essay by Bhikkhu Anālayo reconstructs the genesis of the Bodhisattva ideal from the evidence in the Pāli discourses and their parallels preserved in Chinese translation.[3] We learn that everything said about the Bodhisattva in the Mahāyāna is derived from the common traditions of non-Mahāyāna Buddhism."

I agree that Drewes makes one think. And I also have my doubts about parts of the argument. Still, it is fascinating to see this revision and the argument is powerful enough that a few doubts don't seem to undermine its foundations.

Tuesday, July 07, 2015

Blogger indlim said...

(Coming back to your blog after awhile, only to find yet another well written article - summary or summaries, in this case :-)

Could you please check and verify the usage of the term 'Christian India' towards the end of the first para under 'The Role of Texts'. Did you mean to say 'Christian Europe'?

Metta.

Friday, July 10, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Ha. Yes. Fixed. Plus the other typo right next to it :-). Thanks.

Friday, July 10, 2015

Blogger Greg Pandatshang said...

I don't claim to understand the distinctions made between the different yānas in Tibetan thought, but Hīnayāna seems to represent the most exoteric types of Buddhist behaviour viz meditation to calm the mind (i.e. śamatha) and śīla in the sense of refraining from doing what you're not supposed to do, an austere sense of discipline. I'm not sure to what extent vipaśyanā falls under the rubric of Hīnayāna.

The teacher I'm most familiar with who uses Hīnayāna in this sense is Reginald Ray (ironically already mentioned in your article). I haven't met him, but if I do get a chance to and if it comes up, I'll suggest śrāvakayāna, which makes sense to me (although he does also talk about renunciation a lot in connection to Hīnayāna).

P.S.: I didn't mean to imply a complaint about Drewes' scholarship or about Mahāyānists. I still think the term Mahāyāna is problematic because, although people certainly do use it to refer to themselves (personally, I have described myself Mahāyāna sympathiser), they don't necessarily have much of anything in common with each other beyond the brand name; and, conversely, not everyone who fits into categories we might call Mahāyāna used that term. For instance, if most of the compilers of the Prajñāpāramitā literature didn't use the term Mahāyāna, that means Prajñāpāramitā is mostly non-Mahāyāna unless we are willing to extend the term to people who did not apply it to themselves.

When I wrote "there's nothing to early Mahāyāna other than the composition of new canonical-like texts" I didn't mean to imply that it's deficient something. Presumably these people had various things going on in their lives, but the thing that they have in common that links them together is that they were composing new Buddhist scriptures in 1st century BCE India. Now, you make a very good point that the fact we have these texts to refer to now is because they were not only composed but then multiple people devoted their time to preserving them. So, I should say there's nothing to early Mahāyāna other than the composition of new canonical-like texts and the following that developed around some of those texts. That following does not appear to have been a new institutional structure, so I would assume it was not much larger or more organised that it would minimally need to be in order to successfully preserve the texts. These people were already part of Mainstream institutions that were expert at preserving oral texts.

You're also right that Drewes is merely saying there's no evidence for more than that. But it seems to me that this explanation is entirely sufficient. So, per Occam, it appears to be the case.

Sunday, July 12, 2015

Blogger Greg Pandatshang said...

Anecdotally, regarding the bodhisattva ideal in Pāli Buddhism, I once heard an interview with an American woman who had practiced Buddhism in Burma with U Nu. She had taken a vow, at his instigation, to remain in saṃsāra until a future time when he would be ready to become a sammasambuddha, during which life she was to serve as the head of his order of nuns. So, this scenario involves not only a Theravādin deliberately choosing the bodhisatta path, but also recruiting others to delay becoming arhats so as to accompany him.

Sunday, July 12, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Just because a text does not refer to itself as Mahāyāna that doesn't meant that we cannot recognise it it as such. The whole point is that Mahāyāna is a broadly based movement the evidence for which is a good deal of text production, but which has any of about a dozen or so distinctive features. In fact a good deal more than production of texts, particularly a collection of practices. The bodhisatva path is in fact different from the arhat path, as Nattier's translation of the Ugraparipṛcchā shows. It's just that the difference is not what we thought it was.

If one does Mahāyāna practices then I see no problem with calling oneself a Mahāyāna Buddhist. We need to be clear about historical descriptions of the early Mahāyāna, which is what this article is about, and the modern Mahāyāna which is the result of 2000 years of development and change. In India, Mahāyāna became the mainstream.

If an intelligent guy like Reggie doesn't already know better than to use Hīnayāna, then I don't imagine my opinion is going to convince him.

Sunday, July 12, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

@Greg. The idea of putting off enlightenment is a peculiar one, tied up with acceptance of literal rebirth and liberation as liberation from rebirth. I'd much rather people got enlightened and talked openly about it, than they put it off and have nothing much to say.

Monday, July 13, 2015

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