1 – 13 of 13
Blogger Al said...

The issue is actually more complex in Korea than Japan. In Korea, the Vinaya ordination is generally still held but there is something quite similar to the Japanese ordination in function in many instances. Seung Sahn, who had some influences from Japanese Zen, had his students in the Kwan Um school follow something that pretty much amounts to the Japanese ordination model promoted by Saicho. My lineage is actually through Seung Sahn, so this is where I get it.

There is an ongoing discussion in American Zen right now about "lay vs. ordained" with the latter not even being traditional monks but people following the Bodhisattva precept-based ordination system of Japan.

Friday, September 18, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Al

Thanks for adding your comment. I think the lay vs monk discussion may well turn out to be less relevant than it currently seems. It seems to me that the question is how do we set up conditions for Westerners to practice? Are an anachronistic lifestyle and huge numbers of jejune precepts really the most important things to pursue? Mind you the Amish tend to be held up as examples of good mental health!

Somehow I doubt whether this issue will resolve itself in our lifetimes! Meanwhile we are ordained and that offends some traditionalists. Sigh.

Regards
Jayarava

Sunday, September 20, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

I have subsequently discovered that the order founded by Thich Nhat Hanh - the Tiep Hien Order or Order of Interbeing - was created in 1964 and follow (are ordained on the basis of) an innovative set of 14 precepts which recall traditional Buddhist values but are phrased in contemporary terms. TNH is a recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize and as far as I know has not received any criticism for his innovations. If anything he is lauded. Why the double standard?

See: Tich Nhat Hanh. (ed. Fred Eppsteiner) Interbeing: commentaries on the Tiep Hien Precepts. Parallax Press, 1987.

Friday, October 02, 2009

Anonymous David Chapman said...

I agree strongly with this. In many ways the monastic system was/is dysfunctional in Asia, and it seems unlikely that it can be an effective basis for Buddhism in the West.

With regard to Tibetan Buddhism, there has been "controversy" both in Tibet and the West concerning the status of Ngakpas. By any sane criteria, Ngakpas are "ordained" -- they are permanently-committed religious professionals, invested via a ceremony into a specific system with its own list of vows.

However, in Tibet, Ngakpas seem to have been seen by some in the monastic establishment as a competitive threat, and suppressed.

In the West, there has been a lot of resistance to accepting Ngakpas as "ordained". They are frequently referred to as "lay", with the implication that only monks are non-lay or ordained.

As the Ngakpa ordination is getting to be better known in the West, active opposition seems to have fallen away. There's still a lot of ignorance about it, and also unthinking overlooking. Even in Tibetan contexts -- even Nyingma contexts -- people often equate "ordination" with "monk".

As you suggest, fixing this is probably not going to happen soon, nor is it the most important thing. (Although it is worth pointing out periodically.)

The important thing is that there be SOME workable institutional support for Buddhism in the West. Part of that has to be a practical path into a full-time teaching role. "Ordination" plausibly is a prerequisite to that -- not because we need some system of bureaucratic box-ticking, but because there needs to be a process whereby candidates have support in deciding whether they really are that committed.

By the way, I don't have time to comment on your blog often, but I read and enjoy and admire every post. Thank you!

Friday, October 09, 2009

Blogger Al said...

I can tell you a bit about it privately if you'd like. I know explicitly ordained Ngakpas.

Friday, October 09, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi David

Thanks for your comments. I must look up the Ngakpas.

Had a quick look at your website. It looks quite interesting, and I must say it is beautifully designed. Nice one.

Best wishes
Jayarava

Friday, October 09, 2009

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Presbyter" is from Greek.

Monday, October 12, 2009

Blogger Dayamati said...

Being one of the people who opposes the word "ordination" to refer to the initiation of a dharmachari(ni) into the FWBO, I don't feel my reasons have been represented in your blog posting. My motivation in searching for a term other than "ordination" is that I would like to highlight the FWBO's importantly radical departure from bhikkhu ordination. I would like to find a term that sets dharmachari(ni)s apart from traditional bhikkhus. I suppose I do this because I have serious misgivings about bhikkhu ordination. Your blog posting suggests that those who resist the term "ordination" are putting bhikkhus on a pedestal, which is not at all what I aim to do.

In the final analysis, I think that this whole issue of terminology is of very little importance. I have nothing at all invested in it one way or the other, aside from a slight preference to make it clear that bhikkhus are not dharmacharins, and the FWBO is not anything like a bhikkhu-sangha (which is precisely what attracts me to the FWBo).

Saturday, December 19, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Dayamati

Thanks for filling out the picture regarding this issue.

The fact is I give myself 1000 words each week to comment on something that has been on my mind - I can over cover what I see as the main points. Outlying views and subtle points are often lost at this resolution. You may have mistaken the purpose of "Jayarava's Raves" which is to outline my opinions, not the opinions of others. LOL!

The main confusion I think is not between dharmacārins and bhikkhus - a confusion may once have existed in the case of Sangharakshita - but between dharmacārins and lay people. This was the thrust of most of the comment (and flaming) on Buddha-L at the time I wrote the essay. The claim from traditionalists is not that we are 'something' rather than 'ordained' (i.e. not about terminology), but that we are not ordained in *any sense of the word*, that the ordination/dikṣa or whatever you want to call it has no significance whatever. Although I think I have made it pretty clear that order/ordination/ordained is a cluster of terms that precisely fits the Western Buddhist Order and the significance of our commitment. The issue is how we frame the discussion - and on who's term's. By showing that bhikkhus do not have, and never have had, a monopoly on the term 'ordination' I seek to reframe the discussion away from the simplistic monk/lay split and the *values* associated with it (of which privilege is for me the stand out problem).

I also consider this a relatively unimportant topic - 1 in 163 (and counting) essays, and I was a bit pissed-off at the time because of being attacked by people on Buddha-L. Not a subject that I have repeatedly returned to either, except that other people continue to comment on this post some months later... and I try always to respond to comments.

Saturday, December 19, 2009

Blogger Dayamati said...

Jayarava, your clarification is helpful to me; I now understand a little better your perceptions of the discussions on buddha-l. I think I failed to see that some of the interlocutors were holding the position that a dharmacārin is not in any way distinct from a lay person. I agree with you that a dharmacārin is neither a bhikkhu nor an ordinary lay person. It reminds me of a statement a married Zen priest made about his situation. He said he thought of himself as a bat---neither a bird not a mouse, but a little of each. That description fits the case of the dharmacārin rather well, I think.

Saturday, December 19, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Dayamati,

Yes. I think we agree that there is a need to distinguish ourselves from bhikkhus, but to me that's never been much of a problem. We are distinct and there is little confusion. The sniping about *ordination* brought out the stubborn side of my nature.

If you look at the other comments some are from an "ordained Zen Priest" and one is explaining about people ordained as Ngakpas. I understand dharmacārins to have something in common with these people, and even to the same extent with the bhikkhu - a serious level of commitment to practice the Dharma.

By showing that we have something in common with others calling themselves "ordained" I think we stake a claim to be counted amongst the wider community of seriously lifelong committed people seeking enlightenment by following the Buddhadharma.

We think of ourselves as a community of people who effectively go for refuge - according to Sangharakshita's definition. And ideally we should feel some resonance with others who also go for refuge. The ordination part expresses our solidarity and membership of the wider Sangha (and even with other committed religious to the extent that all faith is comprehensible as a going for refuge of some kind, and all commitment to positive ideals and disciplines is appreciable). The dharmacārin part - to the extent that we are the only ones using it as a description of what we do - expresses our uniqueness as a spiritual movement by describing what kind of ordination we have taken.

The dharmacārin ordination is distinct and wonderful. One might hope even that eventually our movement will not be known as WBO or FWBO but simply as The Dharmacārins.

Saturday, December 19, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

Sangharakshita on ordination in the early 1990's.

Sunday, December 20, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

Sangharakshita on "Why Found an Order?"

Sunday, December 20, 2009

You can use some HTML tags, such as <b>, <i>, <a>

Comment moderation has been enabled. All comments must be approved by the blog author.

You will be asked to sign in after submitting your comment.
OpenID LiveJournal WordPress TypePad AOL
Please prove you're not a robot