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OpenID nihonshukyo said...

I once heard a Dharma talk by Ajahn Brahm where he mentioned that the Buddha labeled delusions as "distortions", not "illusion". People are misinformed in other words, or come to the wrong conclusion as you pointed out. I think that was in one of the sutta dharma talks (the honeyball sutta I believe). Check it out if you ever get a chance. :)

Sunday, February 22, 2009

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re "distortion" and "illusion", yes, Nihonshukyo, I believe the Sanskrit term is moha, defined at http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/m.html and it seems that the term is closer to "error" or even "bewilderment" than illusion. Still, it comes to the same thing in English, where it's OK to use the word "illusion" or "deluded" to refer to a persistent state of error or distortion. As in, the persistence of a sense that oneself has private experiences and interests that in fact others do not share, and vice versa. Or so it seems to me. Plus, teachers try to light the fire under students with dramatic talk of "greed, hatred, and delusion".

Still, if there is nobody, then there is nobody who can reach a wrong conclusion either...It's just that whoever asserts that there is any rebirth whatever certainly believes in more of a self than I believe in. Of course the same goes for assertions about Buddha nature.

My way of resolving some of these contradictions is to recall that the Honeyball Sutra is asking us to stop cultivating the proliferation of concepts and stop looking for answers to unanswerable metaphysical questions. And that doubting existence is a method of knowing. It is not an affirmation of any view.

I should add that a fellow who preached egolessness to me on Sunday seemed also to promote the benefit of the collective ego of a certain clique (they were believers in subtle energies that Buddha scoffed at). And that of course, lunatics worldwide commonly preach selflessness in the interests of a nation, which is just another collective ego. I think a bodhisattva must need to undergo a great struggle to advance the well being of others without holding up dharma as an existing thing. I myself have never seen it done.

Tuesday, May 12, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

Sorry Anonymous but you are saying that we do not have private experiences. This is arrant nonsense.

To say that there is nobody is precisely the kind of statement that I was trying to show is not helpful.

I think you stretch the meaning of the Honeyball Sutta (not sutra note, it is Pāli). Proliferation is not about seeking answers to metaphysical questions - you mixing things up here. Proliferation is something more like making associations, creating stories and fitting new sensations into those stories. Mistaking those stories for something real. Maybe you need to read it again.

Doubting existence is a recipe for madness. Ontological security (as R.D. Laing called it) is essential for spiritual progress. You seem to have missed the point of the post which is saying that attacking the ego is a pointless and possibly dangerous exercise. One needs to go deeper and the sense of self resolves itself. Attacking the ego is attractive to Westerners IMHO because of the self-hatred instilled by Christianity, and by post-Christian nihilism.

I failed to find any sense in your last paragraph. You seem to have invented the phrase collective ego - is this related to your notion of no one ever having a private experience. The one suggests the other, but then you argue that the so-called collective ego is a bad idea.

I can only conclude that you read a lot but are mired in confusion.

Jayarava

Tuesday, May 12, 2009

Anonymous Anonymous said...

What sort of discourse is it where one does not keep quarrelling with anyone in the cosmos, its contemplatives and priests, its government and people? What does the Bhagavan proclaim regarding this matter? I like your blog very much Jayarava! The context of Sakyamuni's time is so critical to hearing what he was saying about anatta (and much else). I was impressed recently when I read that Richard Gombritch says we can know what Sakyamuni was trying to say.

And of course I find I have private states and private interests that are not accessible to others and vice versa. Still, as far as I know, both the dharma and the sangha alike suggest otherwise. Cites about egolessness, cites about the luminous and the deathless. Schism happens. People start putting reconciliation on the agenda.

The idea that dharma is about how we proceed and not about what is true (metaphysics begone) is simply the parable of the raft. This point becomes crucial in interpreting the tathagatagarbha (Sallie King) and yogacara (Dan Lusthaus) literatures. I think the world of Liang but these authors would probably say "that's nice but it's not dharma". Moreover the Honeyball endorses no view, not of egolessness but certainly not of ego either. Yet the method, if not the metaphysics, makes demands: "Let him completely cut off the root of concepts tinged with the prolific tendency, namely the notion - 'I am the thinker'" a passage that Bhikkhu Nanananda cites as the Iuvataka Sutta, A. N. I 150 v916, in Concept and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought BPS, 1971. The Madhupindika figures prominently in Nanananda's essay on the proliferating tendency. By the Honeyball's definition, views result from a tendency toward the proliferation of concepts, and do not cause the ceasing of unskilled states and interpersonal strife. I find Nanananda well reasoned. I don't think he addresses the nihilism issue.

Who does? Matsumoto and Hakamaya for example. As for "collective ego" I don't know who may have originated the concept but I certainly don't have that honor. Cf Hakugen Ichikawa; "no-self became both a theory and ethic serving mikado imperialism", quoted in Zen at War. Of course I agree that demonizing of the ego is pointless and dangerous!

Perhaps my skepticism about other things leaked through and exposed objectionable tendencies. To believe in rebirth is certainly not in my power, and I have a most imperfect ability to appreciate the beauty, wonder, and power of rebirth as a metaphor. Moreover if there is a natural law of justice it has escaped my attention, which I openly admit is of inferior capacity. To believe without proof in the extraordinary powers of bhikkhus or bodhisattvas or devas or anything else is also beyond my ability. Please, let no one be troubled by these deficiencies on my part. I hope that about covers it. We have drifted from the topic. What was that guy Sakyamuni talking about exactly?

Tuesday, May 12, 2009

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