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OpenID philosvids said...

At last - a good article on this! Glad to see some sense, and some detail!

Friday, November 29, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Thanks. :-)

Friday, November 29, 2013

Blogger Mark Tatz said...

from the Indo-Eurasia discussion group: Coningham is known for previous questionable claims of "earliest" discoveries, including the earliest Brahmi writing (in Sri Lanka!), and the earliest urban settlements.

Friday, November 29, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Mark. Thanks that puts things in perspective. I'm vaguely familiar with the "earliest writing" controversy but had not connected the two of them.

One way to ensure continued funding I suppose - most funders are not in a position to know any better and at least he gets cited if only to be refuted.

Friday, November 29, 2013

Blogger usiebie said...

Great work!

Friday, November 29, 2013

Blogger usiebie said...

Great work, great article.

Friday, November 29, 2013

Blogger CPW said...

Thanks so much for this article, I was very confused by this story in the press as it seemed to confirm the earlier date for the Buddha's life, which has been refuted!

Monday, December 02, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi CPW,

Yes. The article and associated press release seemed to say a lot of things for which there was no evidence.

We still don't know the dates of the Buddha with any certainty.

And yet the archaeology was interesting and it's a shame the professionals were not more objective in assessing what it meant. I imagine there is still much to learn from the site.

Monday, December 02, 2013

Blogger cfm said...

Hi Jayarava,
Love your commentary, will check out the Antiquity article myself. My first thought when I read about it in the Observer was "but there is no evidence that the postholes were Buddhist", then it made me laugh because making a temple out of five postholes can be common archaeological practice ;) however linking it to the dates of a major world religion is an entirely different kettle of fish. I agree with Richard Gombrich but would like to see how the authors themselves actually worded it.
BTW, there would be absolutely no way to date any pre-Ashokan layers (like the brick pavement) without datable material (like charcoal), so that's probably why the authors are vague about it.
Thanks for such an in-depth and informed discussion!
Christiane

Friday, December 06, 2013

Blogger Adam Cope said...

Hi Jayarava

Thanks for sharing & commenting.
It's a bit like the sites here in Dordogne, which are frequently built on top of prehsitoric caves. Layer after layer.

ps. I joke: the earliest buddhist shrine ... and it was empty ;-)

shun'ya'na'known'that'a?

Wednesday, December 11, 2013

Blogger Greg Pandatshang said...

Thanks for your work on this. It's quite illuminating ... and I'm a sucker for anything with Śākyas, anyway.

Have you looked into the findings at Piprahwa, which were the focus of a recent documentary, the Bones of the Buddha. The gist is that there is a reliquary with an an Asokan-era inscription stating that it contains relics of the Buddha and his family members; and that, at the same site, there is an older shrine dating to the 6th century BCE. I believe that some have also claimed that Piprahwa is the site of Kapilavastu.

Monday, December 30, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Greg

I haven't seen the doco but there is an extract here. The

A quick scan of the stories about it suggest it is also controversial. Charles Allen who features in the film (lovely chap I met him a few years ago at a lecture by Richard Gombrich) is an historian who has written two largely overlapping books on the subject of the rediscovery of Buddhist archaeology in India - the new book on Asoka is about 75% identical with the Buddha and the Sahibs. They are probably the most thorough books on the subject. But he is not an archaeologist, nor a linguist or an expert in palaeography. Good interview with him here. Read the comments as well though.

There is some doubt about the authenticity of the find. A rather extensive site discussing the issue is called the Piprahwa Deceptions.

But lets be clear just because an Asoka era vessel says that it contains the relics of the Buddha does not mean that "we can be absolutely confident" that it does. This is simply poor scholarship on Harry Falk's part. I'm surprised that he would commit himself so far and so categorically. There is always the possibility of a pious forgery - consider the tooth relic in Kandi for an example. Falk goes on about Sanskrit, but Asoka never used it in other inscriptions. He presumably means Prakrit but does not adequately distinguish the two. If indeed the inscription is in Sanskrit then it is almost certainly post-Asoka by some centuries (perhaps 3 or 4).

The author of Piprahwa Deceptions suggests that Harry Falk's success rate of distinguishing genuine relics from modern forgeries is poor. Though Allen claims that Richard Salomon (whom I've also met) also backs up his claim that the find is Asokan - I'd trust Salomon's judgement having read quite a bit of his published work.

One thing to note in the extract is that the scribe has fucked up the spacing on the inscription and has to add two letters on another row. This is supposed to be the relics of the Buddha and the scribe is so careless? I know just how careless and sloppy modern Nepalese scribes can be having just transcribed by far the worst Heart Sutra manuscript I have so far seen (Conze notes it in his bibliography and then sets it aside without mentioning it's variations). But an Asokan scribe decorating the reliquary of the Buddha being so sloppy? I doubt it. It's quite possible the casket is authentic but much older than the inscription on it.

Thanks for drawing my attention to this. It helps to explain why the use of archaeology has still not taken off in Buddhist studies despite the chiding of Greg Schopen.

Monday, December 30, 2013

Blogger Ajatha Shatru said...

Great Thing! I think someparts of MBh speaks about this climate shift and a Flood in Hastina around 800 BCE. Urbanization in Koushambi also begun around Same period AFAIK. If this is true, then Core text of Mbh can be safely dated to 900 BCEs. Thanks for the Info.

Saturday, March 22, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

India got *drier* in the 850 BC climate shift. If anything there was a drought, not a flood.

I've seen no archaeological evidence of a flood anywhere in India at any period. But floods are part of the mythology of every continent - if they point to a single event it was more than 65,000 years ago in Africa!!

If you have evidence for urbanisation this early I'd love to see it. It is usually reckoned to be 3 centuries later in the 6th century.

I don't think any of this bears on the dating on the Mahābhārata.

Just keep breathing...

Saturday, March 22, 2014

Blogger Ram said...

Hi Jayarava,
I read your blog and find it very interesting and educative. Congratulations for that! What I feel that the study of early history of India and Buddhism should be taken through the Hindu temples. For, I think that it is the Hinayana Buddhist tradition that get converted into the Hinduism and the Mahayana Buddhist tradition that get converted into Brahmanism. I consider that most of the Hindu goddesses were none other than the Hinayani/Mahayani Buddhist nuns. My guess is like Ambe Maa, Tara Maa, Durga or Kaali Maa, Lashmi Maa, Saraswati Maa, etc. and many more were the Buddhist nuns. Also I consider the elephant headed god- Ganesha is nothing but the Samrat Ashoka himself because all the epithets given to Ganesha simply fits to Ashoka and the elephant worship was common in Buddhist period.
I am quite sure that, till now, no one have undertaken taken such studies. If one can find out the basis of construction of all ancient Hindu temples, sites and structures, he might surely stumble upon Buddha’s bones and tooth!

Tuesday, September 09, 2014

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