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Blogger Greg Pandatshang said...

In Sanskrit "h" (I'm using IAST/ISO 15919 here, of course, not IPA) is a voiced sound. So, I'm sceptical of the idea that it would have derived from /kʰ/ (IPA).

Is Avestan "z" really a regular cognate of Sanskrit "ś"? Wikipedia seems to be advising me that Av. "z" goes with Skt. "j" and "h" while Av. "s" goes with Skt. "ś". Thus, on the surface, zərəd appears to match hr̥d- and not śrad-.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that hr̥d- could be an early loan from a different IE dialect. One imagines this sort of thing must be very common. For example, I suspect that the English word "kid" could derive from an early loan from an Italic/Greek or similar source, while "goat" is the same word in its direct Germanic form (from IE gheyd-; note that Italic and Greek regularly devoiced bh/gh/dh while Germanic regularly devoiced g/d). I've also often wondered if the Greek doublet of theós and Zeús/Diós could be the result of inter-dialectal borrowing (rather than the received opinion that the resemblance is coincidental).

Unlike the kid example (and like the theós example), I'm not aware of a plausible candidate source for the borrowing of zərəd/hr̥d- (it would have to be either a very early loan into Common Indo-Iranian or else it was borrowed initial into Indic or Iranian alone and then spread secondarily by contact … or, third option: the substrate source language was widespread and persistent enough to have given loans into both Indic and Iranian languages at different times). Which IE language would have voiced ḱ to ǵ (let alone ǵh)? Maybe it was voiced in some language as a result of being clustered with r – plausible, but I don't know of a case where that is known to have happened.

Another possibility that cannot safely be ignored is that zərəd/hr̥d- represents a loan from a non-IE language that resembles IE words for "heart" purely by coincidence. This puzzle does not necessarily have a solution.

Thursday, September 18, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Greg

I probably wrote this essay too soon as I've learned stuff since (as my notes show) - especially by reading this http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/homes/patrick/lenithist.pdf.

For example you ask "Which IE language would have voiced ḱ to ǵ?" The answer is any of them. The process is called "lenition". Consonant gradation is simply a feature of Indo-European languages. The same process of lenition is responsible for the change from /ḱ/ to /ś/. According to Trask voiceless stops may become voiced /ḱ/ to /ǵ/ or become voiceless fricatives /ś/ and a voiceless fricative may become a voiced fricative /z/. All such may be debuccalised to /h/ Explaining the Germanic form *hart is still beyond me, but I'm still looking.

I can't find much about lenition in Sanskrit. But of course gh > h or dh > h is well known from roots like √han. So we know that this happens. All we need to do is add voicing (known process) and aspiration (unknown process to date). The Avestan zrad also seems to come from gh via s (via debuccalisation)

The morphology is so similar as to make coincidence extremely unlikely in my book - there clearly is a relationship, we just don't understand it yet. Until one has definitely ruled out all other answers, coincidence is no explanation at all. The morphology is different enough to suggest a loan from another IE language and not different enough to be a loan from Munda or Dravidian.

If one simply decides a problem in insoluble because it is hard, then that is a sort of ersatz solution. At worst it stops one asking questions and once that happens then one may as well lay down and die.

In fact collecting evidence would be relatively easy, if time consuming. One simply needs to examine all of the ś- roots in Sanskrit (Whitney list 58, some of which are derivative) and trace them back into PIE. And all of the h- roots (31). A pattern will either emerge or it won't. I'd pay particular attention to all roots with Cṛ- or CrV/CVr. It would take a few hours I imagine and then one could speak more authoritatively on the subject. And probably get a publication out of it too. If no one beats me to it, I may get around to doing it myself at some point.

Friday, September 19, 2014

Blogger Greg Pandatshang said...

Well, I finally found an opportunity to read the source you recommended about the history of the concept of lenition. I found it interesting, but I didn't see anything that makes it seem very likely that ḱ would likely be voiced to ǵ, let alone ǵh. Certainly, it could happen in any language, but I see no evidence that it did happen in any language in the relevant time and place.

As far as I can tell, linguists have no good explanation for hr̥d-. Here (http://starling.rinet.ru/new100/Lexicostatistics.htm) Starostin claims that *ḱr̥d and the *ǵʰr̥d that must underly hr̥d- are in complementary distribution in IE languages, but that seems to be incorrect because Sanskrit also has śrad. Taking a quick browse through Wiktionary, I see a couple of ǵʰ- roots that might imaginably pick up a meaning of heart. Yoël Arbeitman (in Humanism, Culture, and Language in the Near East, pg. 366, which I found on books.google) has a brief and interesting but not terribly illuminating discussion. He points out that ǵʰ- I noticed has been suggested as the source of hr̥d- in the past, viz *ǵʰer̥/*ǵʰer̥d "gut" (whence "chord", "hernia", and "yarn", as it happens). I note that, per Wiktionary, PIE *ǵʰer̥ also has the, perhaps related, meaning of "enclose" (supposedly the root of words like garden, yard, etc.). I guess the heart could be thought of as "the enclosed". Basically, I remain unconvinced that we have any idea what's going on with hr̥d-.

Monday, July 13, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

> "I didn't see anything that makes it seem very likely that ḱ would likely be voiced to ǵ,"

And as I said before

"According to Trask voiceless stops may become voiced /ḱ/ to /ǵ/ or become voiceless fricatives /ś/ and a voiceless fricative may become a voiced fricative /z/."

You don't say *why* you disagree with Trask. However you do agree

> Certainly, it could happen in any language,

Which is big of you. But...

> I see no evidence that it did happen

I've just showed you evidence that it did happen. In the case of hṛd/śrad. You seem to be prejudging my explanation.

> As far as I can tell, linguists have no good explanation for hr̥d-.

Well I am a linguist, and I've just produced a good explanation for hṛd. So WTF?

Monday, July 13, 2015

Blogger Greg Pandatshang said...

I do not disagree with Trask: he says that certain sound changes may occur, and I agree that they may occur. He does not say that they are likely, which wouldn't really make sense as a blanket statement. Likelihood would depend on the specifics of the case. My point is to ask: a) what is the phonetic motivation that would have caused this particular change to occur in this particular case? b) what is the other evidence, besides this example, which leads us to believe that that change did occur in cases like this? If the solution is devised to explain one example after that example has been identified as a problem, then it is an ad hoc solution, which is of limited value. I gave a possible answer to question 1), viz voicing of the first consonant due to assimilation with r, but that was an ad hoc guess.

Monday, August 03, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

I give other examples of all the changes I propose must have happened in the essay. Clearly consonants do change. All that I am saying is that the two forms of hṛd/śrad in Sanskrit can be explained by one of them being a loan word, and the two undergoing changes that seem well documented. I think you've lost sight of the essay as a whole. Arguing that śrad is a loan word, probably from Indo-Iranian, is the only innovation I have added to the picture of changes that are quite well documented. The Proto-Indo-European background is a lot more vague, but I'm not saying that it isn't. I propose one possible solution and make very little claim for it, other than it is possible.

You so far have done nothing to refute my conjecture. All you are doing is nit-picking because you personally, for reasons that remain unclear, do not think it "likely". Nor do you have a workable alternative. This is not a constructive discussion. I don't care what you like or do not like.

You question the "phonetic motivation" but what does that even mean? What is the "phonetic motivation" for any consonant change? What motivates /p/ > /f/ in Germanic? It's simply arbitrary. All we can do is document that changes have happened in the past.

Doubt is fine, but unless you are willing to do the work to show that doubt translates into an argument, you're not really making a contribution. Show me why my proposal *cannot* work, and back it up. That you think it "unlikely" means nothing to anyone. In such an unusual case the explanation was always going to be unlikely and even ad hoc. So what? Why should I care if you have not a single fact to offer in support of your argument?

Monday, August 03, 2015

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