1 – 10 of 10
Blogger Dhivan Thomas Jones said...

Hello Jayarava, thanks for another stimulating blog post – and congratulations on 10 years of it! Thinking about unconditioned dhammas, this is presumably a later Abhidharma kind of thing. Having read your blog, I was looking again at the asaṅkhata-saṃyutta in the Saṃyutta-nikāya, where the Buddha is reported to have said that the asaṅkhata is the destruction of greed, hate and delusion. This sounds more like poetry than metaphysics, and presumably meant that the idea of the asaṅkhata was familiar to his hearers. But the metaphysical interpretation of asaṅkhata would presumably have been a later development, with all the attendant problems you mention.

Monday, November 30, 2015

OpenID dharmanomad said...

That's quite an interesting exercise in alternative-Buddhism you seem to be doing... what if the evolution of early Buddhist ideas had gone in a completely different direction. I don't know if your interpretation is better than the one(s) that actually happened, but it's nonetheless interesting to point it out as a possible outcome.

In any case, you might not be aware that the Tibetan tradition, and the Indian sources they inherited it from (Dharmakirti, etc.) got a whole lot of mileage out of the notion of asaṃskṛta dharmas or "uncompounded phenomena" (Tib: 'dus ma byas). Their understanding is a bit different from the one you are presenting; as far as I understand, space (defined as "absence of obstruction") is the prototypical uncompounded phenomenon; such phenomena are not substantial, indeed they are explicitly said to be mental projections (i.e there is nothing out there in space that is an actual, substantial absence of obstruction - such as thing would be a contradiction in terms). This means that there is no contradiction in the fact that *cognition* of the uncompounded object is still momentary, lasting only until one's awareness wanders elsewhere, as it tends to do.

The genius move, then, is to consider all "generalities" as uncompounded, but cognizable phenomena. Negations such as "the absence of a rabbit on this table" are perfect examples, but so are abstract qualities such as "greenness", that are (empirically) objects of our conceptual cognition. In fact through some rather complicated gymnastics, generalities (sometimes equated with the western philosophical term of "universals") are defined in negative terms, and put on equal footing with absences. This amount to saying that you cannot cognize "green" without reference to "not green". And this is also how such generalities are said to be interdependent and empty of any intrinsic essence: not in being momentary (again: even if the cognition is momentary, its projected object is cognized as indefinitely enduring) or made of parts, but in being comprehensible only in relation to each other, without any ultimate foundation to ground them. Epistemologically, they are known via inference, whereas regular compounded phenomena are known primarily via direct perception.

I'm not a specialist on this topic, but much of this is part of the basic educational curriculum of Tibetan Buddhist monks, and to some extent Tibetan schoolchildren. First they go through elaborate classifications of existents (Tib. gzhi grub, shes bya), then through the various modes of valid and invalid cognition through which these can be known (Tib. blo rig). The details of presentation vary quite a bit between the four Tibetan Buddhist schools; I think what I've said is general enough to apply to all... or to make a hash of them more or less equally!

For the gory (err... let's say juicy) details see http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology-language-tibetan/
or http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav/n.html_1474539638.html

Tuesday, December 01, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

@Dhivan

Hiya. I had meant to try to look through the asaṅkhatasaṃyutta but just haven't found the time. I think it is very interesting that we get these major shifts in meaning over time and that the result is frequently bad metaphysics. Would like to return to this. Thanks for highlighting it.

Wednesday, December 02, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

@Dharmanomad

The irony is that this logic only relies on Buddhist axioms. It was available and to some extent was even grasped by ancient Indians.

My understanding is that nirvāṇa is the prototypical asaṃskṛta-dharma as it is the first that appears in the history of Buddhist thought. But this is with a long view of history. It may well be that Tibetans did what other later Buddhists with short views of history did, i.e. they tried to repair the damage caused by bad early philosophising.

The problem with space as a dharma is that one cannot perceive something that isn't there. Space as unobstruction can't be fundamental because it relies on the prior expectation of obstruction that is frustrated. Once again this is simply bad philosophy. Nor does it escape the logic explored in my essay - if it is asaṃskṛta then it must be either always perceived or never perceived. These are the only two options. A dharma cannot arise and pass away if it has no conditions. To be perceived, means to arise, and thus every dharma must be impermanent and conditioned; or be impossible to perceive.

"The genius move, then, is to consider all "generalities" as uncompounded, but cognizable phenomena. "

Hardly genius. It's a flat contradiction to consider an dharma without conditions to be cognizable, unless it is always and only cognizable. This limitation is absolute in the Buddhist model of mental functioning.

What's more all qualities are abstract. All dharmas are abstractions, that is the whole point of dharma theory. Dharmas are an abstraction from the sense object and sense faculty and sense cognition. And it is precisely because our first person experience is constantly changing that we know that there can be no asaṃskṛta dharmas. Hence the Kaccānagotta Sutta denies that existence and nonexistence (or reality and unreality) i.e. astitā and nāstitā can apply to the world of experience.

Defining experience in terms of absences and negativities is also doubtful at best.

Any number of nouns are absent from this sentence.

If you define the meaning of a sentence in terms of the absence of nouns, as opposed to their presence, then nothing ever makes sense, precisely because absence is effectively infinite. Even if you started, you would never finish elucidating all the absences (the number of nouns in English is constantly growing). That is not how grammar works and it is not how cognition works either. I'm not sure how anyone could have taken this seriously to begin with, but it certainly ought not to survive natural selection. And that begs a question about how religious ideas evolve, since natural selection seems not to operate.

As for an abstraction like "greenness" you are talking about svabhava in the sense it is criticised by Nāgārjuna. One cannot beat Nāgārjuna for pointing out the flaws in this way of thinking. Basically if there were greenness we would only ever see green because greenness would have/be svabhava. Ipso facto there is no "greenness" beyond a convention to call certain types of experience green. Interestingly an influential group of modern philosophers now say this about colour. They ignoring the fact of our common colour sensing apparatus and the physical facts of electromagnetic radiation, and opt to say that "green" is entirely subjective. sensible Buddhists would reply that nothing is *entirely* subjective since at the very least one of the conditions for experience is an *object*.

The more I learn about Tibetan approaches to doctrine the more I wonder how any people came out of that system with any semblance of insight. It is a miracle.

Wednesday, December 02, 2015

Blogger Dhivan Thomas Jones said...

Hi Jayarava and dharmanomad. I was stimulated by dharmanomad's comments. One comment, though, would go that universals such as greenness ought not be regarded as unconditioned dharmas. Such universals are obviously objects of perception but, if they exist, could be regarded by inference as e.g. absence of non-greenness. This is an epistemologically powerful explanation for aspects of our experience such as colour but does not mean that colour is unconditioned. Perhaps space is the only sensible kind of proposed unconditioned dharma we should consider. I am better on Kant than on Buddhist epistemology, but the idea that space is unconditioned seems to bear some comparison with the idea that space is a transcendental condition for experience. It is neither objective nor subjective but is a condition for anything to be said to be in space. Hence we can cognize 'space' as a concept, we can form the idea of space, and this concept or idea may arise, pass away, etc., hence is 'conditioned', but the concept or idea is a concept or idea of space itself, which is unconditioned because it is transcendental. It's no doubt really obvious that this kind of epistemological interpretation of the unconditioned has nothing whatever to do with the unconditioned as being the destruction of greed hate and delusion!

Wednesday, December 02, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Dhivan,

It seems to me that greenness is not a universal at all, or at least that such "universals" are an attempt to smuggle an ātman into Buddhism and are in fact disallowed. Green is an experiential quality; greenness is the non-existent noumena that underlies the experience of green. There is no greenness. It's not productive to keep talking about it.

All this does not change the situation regards unconditioned dharmas. There are only two choices for unchanging phenomena: either we always perceive them or never perceive them. If pratītyasamutpāda describes how we have experiences, then asaṃskṛta-dharmas are ruled out. If it is possible to experience green, then green is governed by pratītyasamutpāda. Similarly with space - space does not involve the absence of experience.

The only applicable experience relevant to the discussion of asaṃskṛta dharmas is *the experience of cessation*. It is only this experience, in which all sensory and mental content ceases, which appears not to be covered by pratītysamutpāda since nothing is arising, but according to the texts one still has an experience. But I don't think asaṃskṛta dharmas is a good explanation for what happens in cessation. The choice of space as the prototypical asaṃskṛta dharma demonstrates that Buddhist thinking had by that time become bogged down in ontology and becomes less and less relevant to understanding experience.

Wednesday, December 02, 2015

Blogger Dhivan Thomas Jones said...

Hi Jayarava,

Perhaps you're not familiar with the problem of universals. When you write 'green is an experiential quality' you are using the word 'green' but without specifying a particular green thing; it is hence a 'universal' (whether you call it 'green' or 'greenness'; 'greenness' is simply the quality or state of being green). The problem of universals (in medieval European philosophy, but with its parallels in Indian epistemology, no doubt) is working out the epistemological basis of our use of non-particular or universal signifiers. To say that 'green' is a non-existent noumena underlying the experience of green is a philosophical opinion, though not a very good one, since something non-existent cannot underly anything. The Buddhist (Dignaga's I believe) kind of answer to the problem of universals such as 'green' is really clever and intriguing, positing the 'absence of non-green' as a way to avoid positing an apparent essence, which of course would be incompatible with fundamental aspects of Buddhist metaphysics like śūnyatā.

I suspect that the kind of Buddhist philosophising around asaṃskṛta-dharmas that the Indians went for is probably a little more sophisticated than you're allowing for. I'm not everso familiar with it, but similar kinds of philosophising around e.g. space in Kantian philosophy are richer than you allow for here. If we take the idea of 'space as a form of intuition' in the Kantian kind of way, then in principle space is not something you can experience per se, but it is one of the conditions for the possibility of experience. We don't directly experience space, and nor time, but we infer them, and form concepts about them, and in both sense they are dharmas. I don't see that perception has to count as our only means of knowledge.

Wouldn't you say you reject the unconditioned dharmas that are described as modes of cessation because you reject the whole underlying ontology of momentary dharmas? It's not like you accept the doctrine of momentariness and that whole Abdhidharma ontology but not the unconditioned dharmas is it? I'm not all that keen on Abhidharma ontology, but then there is the causeless (ahetuka) non-karmic citta dharma which produces the 'smile of the arahant' – now doesn't that show that the Abhidharmikas weren't so bad?

Wednesday, December 02, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

I notice you have dropped the use of the abstract "greenness" which is what I was objecting to. "Green" I have no problem with. The abstraction "Green-ness" looks like an attempt at an noumenon. There is no "greenness".

"Green" is simply a linguistic convention that doesn't even exist in some languages. We don't in fact all agree on what is green. My view, following Lakoff, is that it's because our colour names are in fact related categories, each with a prototype. Colour is experienced as having a relationship to that prototype. Homer could talk about the "wine dark sea" because in his colour categories what we call "blue" came into one of the only four colour categories that the ancient Greek language had (roughly white, black, red, and yellow). Homer also describes the sky as "bronze". He's not colour blind or abnormal, it's just that his language has different categories to ours - and blue/green were not given separate names in that language. We really only began to understand Homer's idiom when, in the late 20th century, we figured out that Ancient Greek only had four colour categories compared to our ten or eleven (orange is pretty recent). See also See Blue.

I suppose this does highlight the inherent problems associated with any categorisation process - the temptation to think of a defining characteristic (svabhāva as used positively by Abhidharmikas) that places some object in a category as something that has an independent existence (svabhāva as used negatively by Nāgārjuna). This seems to happen because a category needs a stable definition to be useful.

Sure, we infer things and those inferences are technically dharmas (though I'm not sure dharma theory is really sophisticated enough for describing a logical inference - it would count as prapañca wouldn't it?). So if we infer something about space, let's say that we infer that it is unconditioned, then the dharma that is arising is not "space", but an inference about space. What have we learned about space qua dharma? Nothing, because we have not experienced space; no dharma categorised as "space" has arisen or passed away. Although one could follow the Nāgārjunian logic and argue that because space qua dharma never arises, then it is a good candidate for being unconditioned. The very fact that we never seem to experience space is evidence of this. Being wary of confirmation bias we can take the idea that space is an unconditioned dharma as a working hypothesis and seek to disprove it. But the simple fact is that we could never prove such a proposition beyond any reasonable doubt because of the Black Swan Effect. It might be a strong theory, but the moment someone realises that actually we do experience space, perhaps in some subtle way, then the theory dies. We have no way of knowing if or when this might happen, but we cannot rule it out. Of course the Sarvāstivādins did rule it out by declaring as an axiom that space *is* an unconditioned dharma. The problem with this is *how could they know?* If space is unconditioned there's no way to gain certain knowledge about it since it is not accessible to cognition. How do we have knowledge of something that no one experiences and that cannot be cognized? Their own epistemology denies them access to the knowledge that space is unconditioned. So, again, space is not a good prototype for the category "unconditioned dharma".

Thursday, December 03, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

On the other hand if we start from an experience that some people we know have had (at least a few of our colleagues if their testimony is trustworthy), i.e. the experience of cessation, in which one is conscious, but without sensory or mental content, then this is a much more interesting starting point. But I've been over this ground already. It's what the essay is about.

What I'm saying is that to start from a theory and try to reason towards an ontology might be amusing, but it's not half so interesting or important as starting from an experience and trying to reason towards a theory of experience.

It's not that I reject the doctrine of momentariness, as much as I have shown that it cannot do what it sets out to do. The doctrine is incoherent. I don't see the need to state that I reject an incoherent theory; to me that's a given. The problem I am actively working on through this blog is that such incoherent theories are still actively being taught as the ultimate truth about the universe in our Buddhist centres.

I don't see a problem with pointing out that a Buddhist doctrine is contradictory on it's own terms. Indeed this strikes me as a useful way to get people to work down to the more fundamental problems: to say that asaṃskṛta dharmas contradict the theory of momentariness is a step in the right direction. Pointing out a series of contradictions at various levels in the superstructure of Buddhist doctrine, combined with reflections on the psychology of belief, will hopefully get more people to reflect on what they believe and why.

The best I could say about the Ābhidharmikas, is that they probably meant well.

Thursday, December 03, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

For what it is worth, I think Kant has now been superseded and in language that is much easier to understand. For example Mark Johnson's book The Body in the Mind: The Bodily Basis of Meaning, Imagination, and Reason contains a superior description of how we structure experience using image schemas. This links up with George Lakoff's work on categorisation in Women, Fire, and Dangerous Thingsand the book the pair of them wrote on metaphor, Metaphors We Live By. In this view there is no spooky transcendental judgement - the structure of experience is provided by the brain, through physical experience. The similarity we experience are provided by common brain structure/function and regularities in the universe.

On the mass, energy, and length scales relevant to human experience we also know, thanks to Einstein and others, that there is an existent universe independent of our experience of it, though how we experience it depends on our inertial frame. This universe is made up of spacetime, mass, and energy, all of which behave in a lawful manner as far as we can tell through millions of experiments. Of course at the nano-scale this apparent reality breaks down, but since we can never actually experience the universe at this scale it's not relevant to understanding experience. Scale is important. Of course there are theoretical problems in trying to find theories which show that the universe on any arbitrary scale is a manifestation of general laws - a law that explains the behaviour of the universe on the human, nano and cosmic scale. Some believe that String Theory or M Theory will turn out to be the general law. Ultimately this won't change the world of human experience - just as Relativity, 100 years old this year, doesn't really change human experience - we can with great effort and special instrumentation notice the effects of Relativity, but even this doesn't affect how we go about our lives. If we ever build a space-ship capable of relativistic velocities it might raise moral quandries, but for now we can ignore it.

Trying to do philosophy that is relevant to the present with outdated concepts and terms seems to be one of the major problems in the contemporary world. Similarly I don't think modern philosophy (or science) is much help in understanding early Buddhist thought either. Of course they shared some metaphors and image schemas with us, they are not aliens. But their project was very different from the Greek project and their methods were very different. Kant made break-throughs that helped to make sense of the knowledge of his day. But his day has been and gone. So, for that matter, has the Buddha's day been and gone.

I'm more of a historian of ideas than a philosopher - a very reluctant philosopher. The more I learn about traditional philosophy (Western and Eastern) the more reluctant I become.

Saturday, December 05, 2015

You can use some HTML tags, such as <b>, <i>, <a>

Comment moderation has been enabled. All comments must be approved by the blog author.

You will be asked to sign in after submitting your comment.
OpenID LiveJournal WordPress TypePad AOL
Please prove you're not a robot