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Blogger Unknown said...

Thanks for this translation.

But oh so unsatisfying.I have to say I was longing for a pithy answer to the freewill issue from Mr Gotoma!

Alas, perhaps it's fodder for the unanswerable pile. But I do confess a wish that there would be an alignment with David Hume's soft determinism. Some type of Middle Way explanation!

Sunday, February 01, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Which freewill issue were you thinking of? I think the sutta answers most of the interesting questions on free will: Can we make choices? Of course we can, it's stupid to think we don't (I paraphrase). I suppose we could further ask *Do* we make choices? Not always. Is not choosing also morally significant? Sometimes.

It's all there in the texts if you are willing to sift them. But as this text makes clear, it's not really an issue for Buddhism. Will is apparent, a given. Freedom is a choice we may exercise and perfect freedom is the goal.

On friday I'll be arguing against a determinist view, but that's as far down the freewill rabbit-hole as I'm likely to go. The whole thing seems like a silly legacy of Christian theology more than anything else.

Sunday, February 01, 2015

Blogger alex said...

Hi Jayarava,

Thank you for your well researched essays, I've been following your blog for quite a while. The stuff you discuss is important to me.

For me (likewise for the commenter before, I assume) the sutta does not answer the ultimate question. Namely "do we have a choice or do we have an illusion of having a choice?" I have nothing to do with Christianity (brought up as an atheist), but these questions are still quite nagging.

If we do have a choice indeed, then who are these we actually? It starts sounding like atman to me.

Anyway, I'm waiting for your Friday tackle of scientific determinism with anticipation.

A.

Wednesday, February 04, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Alex,

"do we have a choice or do we have an illusion of having a choice?"

I cannot think of a way of distinguishing the two. Presumably if choice were an illusion there would be some way of forcing the illusion to fail? Then the question become, what is the nature of the illusion? If we know that then we can design an experiment to test it.

But what would lead us to conclude that choice is an illusion in the first place? It's not an obvious question. As far as I know there are two reasons for suggesting choice might be an illusion and tomorrow I'll be choosing to try to refute both of them. So keep reading just a little while longer :-)

Thursday, February 05, 2015

Blogger alex said...

Hi Jayarava,

answering before my mind is affected by your tomorrow's ideas :)

Given the classical definition of free will as "if all the universe is in exactly same state, could I have chosen otherwise?", there is no such experiment currently feasible.

The problem is that any answer to this question looks unsatisfactory. If it is "no free will", then it contradicts the experience and brings plethora of problems. If it is "yes", then on what casual basis is a choice made? If it is just throwing some quantum dice, then well, ok, we can call it somewhat "free" by downgrading the definition a little, replacing "I have chosen" by "it have happened". But then who actually wills in this case?

Thursday, February 05, 2015

Blogger alex said...

quick follow-up…

It seems to me that the illusion operates strictly based on this sense of separate "I" who wills. If there is no sense of "I", there is no such experience.

There are experiments showing that brains make choice sowewhat .3 second before we are aware of it. Sam Harris likes to give it as a proof of no free will, but I don't think they prove anything yet as conscious awareness itself is complicated business.

Thursday, February 05, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

If no experiment is possible then all you can do is relax and get on with exerting your possibly illusory will.

I think it's entirely clear that we have degrees of freedom and that there is no good reason to think we do not.

Rather than get drawn into this now, I will let tomorrow's essay speak for itself.

Thursday, February 05, 2015

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