1 – 9 of 9
Blogger Jason said...

Another fantastic article, Jayarava, and once again I genuinely thank you for your time and effort; it is appreciated (/me bows in gassho).

I think that kamma/karma is one aspect of Buddhist teaching that can not only be (and often is) misunderstood but dangerously mis-taught (like the Tibetan Rinpoche who explained away the holocaust as karma).

In my practice, my volitional actions/thoughts/words (karma) will have a knock-on effect (the fruit/vipaka), directly or indirectly (see my own humble writing on this subject at here). This is what drives me to awareness of my actions/thoughts/words at all times, because I know that there will be consequences for me and for others.

Jason.

Sunday, January 25, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

Thanks again Jason,

I think to be fair that Tibetan Buddhists are fully prepared to live by what they teach. I recall someone, it may have been the Dalai Lama, saying that he accepted that the invasion of Tibet and the subsequent atrocities were down to evil actions in the past committed by Tibetans. Perhaps in the right context that could be seen as helpful? I think the point is much the same one that we both make which is that it sharpens one's awareness of consequences.

And this of course is not an end in itself. It is a backdrop against which one meditates and works with one's mind. In one sutta "freedom from remorse" is sufficient to set you on the spiral path.

Must have you round for tea soon!

Love
Jayarava

Sunday, January 25, 2009

Blogger Jason said...

Well, maybe the Tibetan POV is dangerous because it is easily misinterpreted by people who don't understand that POV. Perhaps it is helpful (to the Tibetans) to believe that the current state of affairs is down to their past actions, but I struggle with that. It almost absolves the Chinese from any responsiblity (but, as ever, I am fully prepared to be corrected by your good self).

Tea would be nice, could do with another brain-bashing session :)

Sunday, January 25, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

I suppose the Tibetans might see the Chinese as the agents of karma in this case. Like you, it doesn't work for me, but I wanted to leave open the possibility that it might work for others.

Email me when might be a good time for me to bash your brain ;-)

JR

Sunday, January 25, 2009

Blogger DarkDream said...

Jayarava,

Great post. Your exposition of this passage really highlights the value in learning Pali and understanding the religious background the Buddha grew up in.

I may be looking too much into the passage which you did a good job of commenting on, but here is another angle to it.

As you pointed out the Buddha was talking to Brahmins and was using their own technical vocabulary.

From what I understand, the whole notion of the sacrifice was done in the inner circle or inner world of the sacrifical space to create results in the greater world or cosmos; thus the joining of the microcosm to the macrocosm.

To me 1a is this microcosm, in 1b the Buddha is replacing the metaphysical macrocosm with the macrocosm of ehtics. 2a is what links the 1a and 1b together. I see the spoke of the wheel in 2b as the the inner world (1a) and the wheel the outer world (1b). I agree that the pin holds everything together.

Given the context of the sutta where the Buddha is redefining Brahmin via ethical actions instead of being defined by the sacrifice, I think what I am saying makes some sense (I hope so :); the outer order of the world is driven by actions of the inner world of psychology and not by sacrifices.

Wednesday, January 28, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi DarkDream,

Do you have a name, I feel silly responding to "DarkDream", or is that what people call you?

I suppose there is nothing to stop you applying that meaning to the verse. It's a stretch though. It would make the verse esoteric rather than exoteric, which I am doubtful of. Understand that I thought I was stretching the verse quite a bit, and you seem to be going a lot further.

There is no guarantee that these Brahmins were practising the old sacrificial religion. Many Brahmins had given it up by this point and were adopting a new hybrid religion which involved assimilating new ideas from the śramaṇas, but retaining the importance of ritual actions - e.g. pūja rather than yajña, or buddhadhamma rather than jatidharma. It is probably why, until recently, the śramaṇa movement was thought of as an offshoot of the Vedic religion by people who gave up the sacrifices and took up meditation. This change in the Brahmincal religion started in Magahda. More on this on Friday BTW!

I'm wary of making too much of a single verse taken out of context which both of us are doing. But you could be right. There are other texts where the Buddha is making just the kind of point that you are suggesting here: that ethical action is more significant than ritual action (whether dharma, pūja, or yajña). I'd want to re-read the entire sutta before either saying much more, or making a decision.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Wednesday, January 28, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

Dark Dream asks (sorry I inadvertently deleted the original post)

Jayarava,

I was reading the Chandogya Upanishad (translated by Patrick Olivelle) and encountered at the end of 6.8.6:

The existent is their resting-place, the existent is their foundation.

The Sanskrit for the entire passage:

yathā nu khalu somyemās tisro devatāḥ puruṣaṃ prāpya trivṛt trivṛd ekaikā bhavati tad uktaṃ purastād eva bhavati |
asya somya puruṣasya prayato vāṅ manasi saṃpadyate manaḥ prāṇe prāṇas tejasi tejaḥ parasyāṃ devatāyām || ChUp_6,8.6

It sounds like you know some Sanskrit (I don't). Do you think there is a parellel here between the passage you are looking at?

In the Culakammavibhanga sutta you have:

sattā kammadāyādā kammayonī kammabandhū

What do you think?

Hi Dark Dream

The Sanskrit you have quoted doesn't match the bit which parallels our sutta in form, you want the previous sentence. I don't see any parallels in content here. CU is arguing that being underlies everything where as the Vāseṭṭha Sutta is saying that karma underlies experience. Very different arguments.

Best wishes
Jayarava

Saturday, March 14, 2009

Blogger DarkDream said...

Sorry, I was not clear at all when I phrased the question. I thought maybe the overall sentence structure and vocabulary had parallels. Yes, of course CU is arguing for being which is totally different from action. I am wondering if the Buddha is maybe referring to this passage in the CU and ironizing it by replacing "being" with "kamma" or action.

Just a thought.

--DarkDream

Sunday, March 15, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

We think the Buddha may have bee aware of the teachings which became the Bṛhadāranyaka Upaniṣad - Gombrich, and especially Signe Cohen's book (title slips my mind) make this fairly clear. It is unlikely that any particular sentence in the extant texts will be repreated as they clearly did not reach their final form until a bit later. It is unklikely that the Buddha had contact with the Chāndogya tradition as that was associated with the Kuru-pañcala region. I haven't see any references to definite parallels in form or content to CU, whereas I have seen (and found one myself) parallels to BU. If you did find one it would be most interesting. But that verse didn't appear to be it from what I could see.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Sunday, March 15, 2009

You can use some HTML tags, such as <b>, <i>, <a>

Comment moderation has been enabled. All comments must be approved by the blog author.

You will be asked to sign in after submitting your comment.
OpenID LiveJournal WordPress TypePad AOL
Please prove you're not a robot