7 years ago -went 'shopping' for a car...(kid needed my '89 Volvo-I drive my vehicles forever so always get 'one that will last!) ) tried upper-end GM --was treated -not so well-- happened to be by a Lexus dealer-found that they were not any more expensive than GM-- I was treated 'ROYALLY'--guess which car I bought?!!the Toyota -Lexus and she has been has given me nothing but JOY!!!! Next to my '76 International Scout II - I can say that my close second favorite of the 4 vehicles I have owned...is my Lexus-Toyota... GO Toyota!!! C-CS
My dad taught me to drive a car into the ground, too.
I'm 48 and have owned 6 since I was 17. 3 I had to get rid of only because others thought they saw a bullseye on the car (walked away from each of those as well -- 3 in under 2 years. Sheesh).
My favorite is my current Ford Ranger. Next would have been a very quick and lively Dodge Shadow (5 speed manual trans. 6 cylinder) and next to that and old Volvo wagon I had for many years.
Government Motors (GM) will be defended by the state-run media. I wouldn't expect any reporting by them.
Lexus is a great choice in automobiles. I bought GM once-upon-a-time but would not buy an Obama under any circumstances today. I realize the Cobalt in question was built before it became a subsidiary of the US Govt, however the point about the state-run media remains.
Power Steering failure will never cause wobbling. At highway speeds you won't even notice. It just makes it very difficult to turn the wheel at low speeds.
Wobbling at highway speeds is either caused by poor alignment or poor weight balance on the tires.
I really don't see a double standard here for the recalls. The trouble with Toyota, and why they're getting hearings in Washington, was because they did everything in their power to cover up the incidents. Everything they could to avoid a recall. They still have not recalled any vehicles in Japan even though they are having identical incidents. On the other hand power steering wearing out and failing is a normal part of a car's wear & tear but shouldn't be expected on a car less than 10 years old. Since its wearing out after only 5 years, GM is fixing it. There was no cover up and GM didn't show any signs of trying to avoid the recall.
On cars with power steering, if the power steering suddenly fails you're still left with mechanical steering which requires additional effort at low speeds but is not noticeable at 50mph. I wonder how cars with electronic steering will fair when their motors start failing in 10 years and there's no mechanical connection as backup.
I find the electronic fault explanation to be interesting because I deal with Industrial automation. We use analog signals in a similar fashion to how Toyota is. We might use an analog signal over a pair of wires to control an electric motor's speed setpoint from our PLC (Programmable Logic Computer) to our VFD (Variable Frequency Drive). Commonly this is a 4 miliamp to 20 miliamp signal, with 4 miliamps being 0% and 20 miliamps being 100% or a 0-10 volt signal, 0 volts being 0% and 10 volts being 100%. The pair of wires will need to be shielded from end-to-end and grounded on only 1 end. If the shielding is not grounded on one end then any errant EMF can cause unwanted current on the line. If both ends are grounded then any current going to ground can cause interference on the signal.
From my industrial automation experience, if I were to make an electronic steering control like Toyota uses (and I've read the new Mustang), instead of mechanical with power assist like most other cars, the simplest way would be to use 1 pair of wires as a bi-polar analog. For instance -10 volts to 0 volts for left turn and 0 volts to 10 volts for right turn. 0 volts being center. If the wire isn't shielded properly you're going to have voltage jumping randomly between maybe -0.5 volts and 0.5 volts, this would create wobble if the software is set sensitive enough. Obviously, the shielding needs to be done properly to prevent this and then additionally other precautions should be done. 4mA to 20mA would be a better option because -4mA to 4mA would all be 0%, centered wheel. Smoothing should also be done in the computer, smoothing is where the computer continuously samples the signal over a constant time period and then averages the signal and uses the average as the output. A more expensive option would be what we use for our "Safety" PLC's, an additional pair of conductors would carry the same signal from the steering wheel but is electrically isolated from the first pair of wires. The computer can then compare both signals and record a fault if the signals don't match. If electronic steering is installed properly and there are precautions like what I described above, then there should be zero safety issues with "fly-by-wire" electronic steering - up until the point the servo motor goes out leaving you with absolutely no control. I think a maintenance regimen should be needed for that.
Electronic accelerator control should be less problematic than electronic steering but it still offers some potential issues. I see the most likely cause to be the shielding being grounded on both ends - a very common mistake by electricians. This would cause a great amount of errant current on the wires anytime voltage was leaking to ground from another source. Remember, the entire chassis of the car is the car's ground. Normally voltage leaking to ground would indicate an entirely different part of the car is having a problem but with the shielding being grounded wrong, you're having all that excess voltage go across the shielding and leaking into the accelerator signal. This would make diagnosis very difficult as the unintended acceleration would only happen when that other part of the car was leaking voltage to ground.
I've also begun assailing the people at the LA Times with emails.
In my opinion, if it is possible, Toyota ought to sue those journalists INDIVIDUALLY, and they ought to lose everything they own.
They are playing with fire. We're in a bad economy, California is in the top five in unemployment, and they are beating on one of the few major and successful corporations left in California.
Boeing just lost a major contract, and several thousand people will soon be losing their jobs.
And the LA Times is beating on Toyota, for no good reason.
What do they think is going to happen?
They seem to have no responsibility to human beings.
And that is born witness to in the fact that they don't tell people how to fix the problem should it arise.
This may have something to do with the LA Times attacking Toyota: http://news.yahoo.com/video/local-15749667/18523002
Tuesday, March 09, 2010 10:26:00 pm
Anonymous said...
A common misconception about getting Car Insurance Quotes online is that you will have to spend hours navigating through company websites and give out all your personal information to find the rate you are looking for.
Tuesday, April 06, 2010 3:08:00 am
On December 31, 2007, my wife and I went car shopping. Hers had become more expensive to keep up than it was worth.
And, it being December 31, we found some pretty good deals. Dealers wanting to get old stuff off the lot before the new year.
She choose a 2006 Chevy Cobalt with very low mileage. Excellent little car with a good MPG for her 1/2 each way commute.
A month or so after she bought it she had it back at the dealer. The car was shaking uncontrolably from the front end when approaching highway speeds (40-50 mph ish). They said they adjusted something or the other (I no longer recall, it was minor) and away she drove.
Mid June it was back at the dealer again for the same symptom. This time they replaced tie rods. And away she drove.
A week later daughter #2, a college Junior at the time and without a ride of her own, borrowed the car to visit her boyfriend in Connecticut for the weekend.
She's driving home late on a Sunday afternoon. The car starts shaking again. She slows down, gets her mom on speakerphone (the kid does NOT like to talk and drive). She's asking her mom what she should do just as the car settles down. She's going about 50 mph, mom still on speakerphone, when suddenly the car starts shaking violently, she starts screaming says she can no longer steer the car, the steering won't work. She's screaming "Mommy! Mommy!"
when the line goes dead.
I got the call from my wife at the gun club after an hour of shooting and having just ordered a beer. Which someone else got to drink.
By the time I got home (5 minutes) a lady that had seen the wreck had called us on her cellphone. She was with the kid who was mostly okay but badly shaken and in a bit of shock. The car was toast.
As it turns out the steering had completely quit, the car spun violently doing several 360s before slamming into a stone wall. Twice. And crumpled and fell apart around her as (I'm told) they build them to do these days (I'll take the heavy gas guzzling all-steel of my truck anyday).
We made a midnight run to Connecticut and spent the next day talking with insurance and 1. finding where in New York they took the car 2. Getting to the wrecking yard 3. cleaning out the car 4. Wondering how in the hell the kid managed to walk away from that.
The insurance company did not assign "blame" to the kid, it was obviously a mechanical malfunction. They tried addressing it with both GM and the dealer, then went so far as to pull the car's equivalent of a black box to see if it could tell them anything.
Nothing.
So, we had an extremely panicky night, nearly lost a daughter who is still afraid to drive to this day (but does so anyway) and are out a car (the insurance paid what was left ont he laon and little more). And no way to redress it.
And then I read the article below. A year and a half later.
Now, in the case of the Toyota recall there may be something a driver can do to help themselves if they find the car accelerating and Pastorius may want to speak more to that. But it seems more than negligent to me that something like The New York Slimes is more interested in trashing Toyota (when there may not actually be a problem) than in educating the public about how to save themselves in this situation. They have their eye more on the sensationalism and maybe destroying a company than on the safety of John Q Public.
But in the case of the Cobalt recall, and my daughter, once you are in that situation there is NOTHING you can do but hang on, hope and pray.
And nor are we seeing the trashing of Government Motors over this, as dangerous or much more so, a situation as the Toyota problem like we did with Toyota.
I think maybe I need to contact my insurance company again.
GM recalls 1.3 million cars over steering fault Power steering problem in Chevys, Pontiacs linked to 14 crashes, 1 injury
updated 5:58 a.m. ET, Tues., March. 2, 2010 DETROIT - General Motors Co is recalling 1.3 million compact cars in North America to address a power steering problem that has been linked to 14 crashes and one injury, the company said on Tuesday.
U.S. safety regulators opened an investigation on Jan. 27 into approximately 905,000 Cobalt models in the United States after receiving more than 1,100 complaints of power steering failures.
The recall covers the 2005-2010 model year Chevrolet Cobalt and 2007-2010 Pontiac G5 in the United States; 2005-2006 Pontiac Pursuit sold in Canada, and the 2005-2006 Pontiac G4 sold in Mexico, GM said in a statement.
GM said it told the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration about the voluntary recall on Monday after concluding its own investigation that began in 2009.
GM said the affected vehicles can be still be "safely controlled" but it may require greater steering effort under 15 mph. Drivers will see a warning light and hear a chime if the power steering fails.
"After our in-depth investigation, we found that this is a condition that takes time to develop. It tends to occur in older models out of warranty," GM Vice President of Quality Jamie Hresko said in the statement.
"Recalling these vehicles is the right thing to do for our customers' peace of mind," he said.
GM said it is currently developing a remedy to fix the problem and will notify customers when the plan is finalized.
GM spokesman Alan Adler said Monday it will take time for the automaker to get 1.3 million new power steering motors from the supplier, JTEKT Corp., and GM will notify car owners when the parts are available.
Heightened scrutiny after Toyota recalls The recall comes at a time of heightened public and regulatory scrutiny over vehicle safety issues in the wake of massive recalls by Toyota Motor Corp.
Toyota global quality control chief Shinichi Sasaki and North American President Yoshimi Inaba are scheduled to appear before a Senate committee on Tuesday for a third hearing on its handling of consumer complaints about sudden acceleration.
12 Comments
Close this window Jump to comment form7 years ago -went 'shopping' for a car...(kid needed my '89 Volvo-I drive my vehicles forever so always get 'one that will last!) )
tried upper-end GM --was treated -not so well--
happened to be by a Lexus dealer-found that they were not any more expensive than GM--
I was treated 'ROYALLY'--guess which car I bought?!!the Toyota -Lexus and she has been has given me nothing but JOY!!!!
Next to my '76 International Scout II - I can say that my close second favorite of the 4 vehicles I have owned...is my Lexus-Toyota...
GO Toyota!!!
C-CS
Monday, March 08, 2010 1:51:00 am
My dad taught me to drive a car into the ground, too.
I'm 48 and have owned 6 since I was 17. 3 I had to get rid of only because others thought they saw a bullseye on the car (walked away from each of those as well -- 3 in under 2 years. Sheesh).
My favorite is my current Ford Ranger. Next would have been a very quick and lively Dodge Shadow (5 speed manual trans. 6 cylinder) and next to that and old Volvo wagon I had for many years.
Monday, March 08, 2010 2:01:00 am
And I always buy pre-owned.
Monday, March 08, 2010 2:01:00 am
Government Motors (GM) will be defended by the state-run media. I wouldn't expect any reporting by them.
Lexus is a great choice in automobiles. I bought GM once-upon-a-time but would not buy an Obama under any circumstances today. I realize the Cobalt in question was built before it became a subsidiary of the US Govt, however the point about the state-run media remains.
Monday, March 08, 2010 2:11:00 am
I owned a beautiful Infiniti for awhile (wife crashed it :(, but never a Lexus.
They are nice cars though.
Now, I own a couple of Toyotas.
Monday, March 08, 2010 3:20:00 am
Power Steering failure will never cause wobbling. At highway speeds you won't even notice. It just makes it very difficult to turn the wheel at low speeds.
Wobbling at highway speeds is either caused by poor alignment or poor weight balance on the tires.
I really don't see a double standard here for the recalls. The trouble with Toyota, and why they're getting hearings in Washington, was because they did everything in their power to cover up the incidents. Everything they could to avoid a recall. They still have not recalled any vehicles in Japan even though they are having identical incidents. On the other hand power steering wearing out and failing is a normal part of a car's wear & tear but shouldn't be expected on a car less than 10 years old. Since its wearing out after only 5 years, GM is fixing it. There was no cover up and GM didn't show any signs of trying to avoid the recall.
On cars with power steering, if the power steering suddenly fails you're still left with mechanical steering which requires additional effort at low speeds but is not noticeable at 50mph. I wonder how cars with electronic steering will fair when their motors start failing in 10 years and there's no mechanical connection as backup.
I find the electronic fault explanation to be interesting because I deal with Industrial automation. We use analog signals in a similar fashion to how Toyota is. We might use an analog signal over a pair of wires to control an electric motor's speed setpoint from our PLC (Programmable Logic Computer) to our VFD (Variable Frequency Drive). Commonly this is a 4 miliamp to 20 miliamp signal, with 4 miliamps being 0% and 20 miliamps being 100% or a 0-10 volt signal, 0 volts being 0% and 10 volts being 100%. The pair of wires will need to be shielded from end-to-end and grounded on only 1 end. If the shielding is not grounded on one end then any errant EMF can cause unwanted current on the line. If both ends are grounded then any current going to ground can cause interference on the signal.
Monday, March 08, 2010 4:18:00 pm
From my industrial automation experience, if I were to make an electronic steering control like Toyota uses (and I've read the new Mustang), instead of mechanical with power assist like most other cars, the simplest way would be to use 1 pair of wires as a bi-polar analog. For instance -10 volts to 0 volts for left turn and 0 volts to 10 volts for right turn. 0 volts being center. If the wire isn't shielded properly you're going to have voltage jumping randomly between maybe -0.5 volts and 0.5 volts, this would create wobble if the software is set sensitive enough. Obviously, the shielding needs to be done properly to prevent this and then additionally other precautions should be done. 4mA to 20mA would be a better option because -4mA to 4mA would all be 0%, centered wheel. Smoothing should also be done in the computer, smoothing is where the computer continuously samples the signal over a constant time period and then averages the signal and uses the average as the output. A more expensive option would be what we use for our "Safety" PLC's, an additional pair of conductors would carry the same signal from the steering wheel but is electrically isolated from the first pair of wires. The computer can then compare both signals and record a fault if the signals don't match. If electronic steering is installed properly and there are precautions like what I described above, then there should be zero safety issues with "fly-by-wire" electronic steering - up until the point the servo motor goes out leaving you with absolutely no control. I think a maintenance regimen should be needed for that.
Electronic accelerator control should be less problematic than electronic steering but it still offers some potential issues. I see the most likely cause to be the shielding being grounded on both ends - a very common mistake by electricians. This would cause a great amount of errant current on the wires anytime voltage was leaking to ground from another source. Remember, the entire chassis of the car is the car's ground. Normally voltage leaking to ground would indicate an entirely different part of the car is having a problem but with the shielding being grounded wrong, you're having all that excess voltage go across the shielding and leaking into the accelerator signal. This would make diagnosis very difficult as the unintended acceleration would only happen when that other part of the car was leaking voltage to ground.
Monday, March 08, 2010 4:18:00 pm
Full Disclosure: I have no stake in any car company. My employer has done assembly line automation for GM, BMW, Volkswagen, Audi.
Monday, March 08, 2010 4:31:00 pm
I hope this thread repeats with updates. Saw MR's post mentioned elsewhere online. Good.
MR & Pas - did you read Big Government piece on Toyota/GM/NUMMI merger--->disolution history?
Firestone Revisited: Was Toyota a Takedown Target in the Name of NUMMI? by Liberty Chick
HRW
Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:55:00 pm
HRW,
Reliapundit sent that to me this morning.
I will try to write on that this evening.
I have a lot of new information.
I've also begun assailing the people at the LA Times with emails.
In my opinion, if it is possible, Toyota ought to sue those journalists INDIVIDUALLY, and they ought to lose everything they own.
They are playing with fire. We're in a bad economy, California is in the top five in unemployment, and they are beating on one of the few major and successful corporations left in California.
Boeing just lost a major contract, and several thousand people will soon be losing their jobs.
And the LA Times is beating on Toyota, for no good reason.
What do they think is going to happen?
They seem to have no responsibility to human beings.
And that is born witness to in the fact that they don't tell people how to fix the problem should it arise.
Tuesday, March 09, 2010 4:07:00 pm
This may have something to do with the LA Times attacking Toyota: http://news.yahoo.com/video/local-15749667/18523002
Tuesday, March 09, 2010 10:26:00 pm
A common misconception about getting Car Insurance Quotes online is that you will have to spend hours navigating through company websites and give out all your personal information to find the rate you are looking for.
Tuesday, April 06, 2010 3:08:00 am