Post a Comment On: China Matters

"Intimate Enemies: Pyongyang, Beijing, and the Nuclear Factor"

18 Comments -

1 – 18 of 18
Blogger reader said...

Very good analysis.

In 1949, after the Chinese Communists came to power, Chairman Mao and Chou En-lai made several attempts to develop ties to the US.

After their bad experiences with Stalin, they wanted to avoid any dependence on the Soviet Union.

The Dulles brothers, John Foster and Allen, as Secretary of State and Director of the Central Intelligence Agency respectively, refused the Chinese overture.

They believed Mao and Chou were trying to trick the US into beliving that there was a division or crack in the "monolithic" Soviet Bloc.

As a result of this refusal, China was "forced" to lean towards the Soviet Union.

How history would have been differnent had there only been leaders with farsight and understanding of Asian society.

The US, with its poor quality of political analysts and military strategists is about to commit the same mistake again with North Korea. The clowns never learn.

6:10 PM

Blogger mahathir_fan said...

This is actually a lot of good facts, but sprinkled here and there is a little fiction and defamation. Let me tell you where you are right and where you are wrong:

"North Korea’s ballistic missile and nuclear antics are an effort to demand attention, respect, and assistance from the PRC."

Here's where you are right: China fears NK going nuclear, and SK and Japan going nuclear as much as US fears Japan and SK going nuclear or Japan getting a security council seat. And here's where you are wrong: NK is doing the nuclear tests to get China's attention. The program has been ongoing since 1994.

"I don’t think anybody seriously believes that Kim Jung Il expected to be able to extort concessions..."
Extorting concessions would not be the purpose of the test. If I were Kim Jong Il, I would have done the tests, simply because what gets started should come to an end. I really have nothing to lose. I have walked out of the 6 party talks, my accounts are frozen, agreed framework deal is off, the US is not listening to me, etc. etc.. They openly open Yongbon in 1994 and had nothing to show for it until now. Present status quo is not going anywhere, perhaps joining the nuclear club can lead to long term strategic advantage. Also, with the test, nuclear power can be harnessed for energy supply.

"North Korea’s weapons programs are meant to discommode China with the threat of a Asian arms race.."
Again, the effect is true but the conclusion is twisted. All nuclear powers do not want non-nuclear powers to own nuclear weapons because nuclear weapons empower the smaller states. You could have replaced the word "China" on that sentence with "US" or "Russia" and it would still have been a correct statement if you change "are meant to" to "can".

"the specter of Japan becoming a pro-active regional security force with US backing"
Here is where you are not right. As soon as Japan goes nuclear, the US - Japan alliance which traditionally has been that of a master-vassal will be on equal terms. That means, there may be frictions and there may be a break in the alliance if US insist on being the master and Japan refuses to play the role of a vassal state.

"Overall, North Korean officials consider the sporadic trickle of economic aid from China to be pathetic. "
Should I believe this guy from Asia Pacific center for Security Studies, or should I believe this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LektgPrf3Zg

"A defector reported that the Chinese are insisting that old debts be cleared before new business can be done."
Every country that is engaging with trade with North Korea is pretty much insisting on this because NK's credit rating is very bad. If you are a Malaysian businessman engage in trade with a North Korean businessman, are you sure you will swing credit around for him?

China began to investigate the allegations of fake currency after the US lodge the report. They concurred with the Americans and only after that began to freeze the assets. Does China have a choice if its own investigation revealed that one of its banks is involved in money laundering?

China's banks are left holding those fake notes. The only way China can "unfroze" those accounts is to join NK in this counterfeating ring. That is, ignore that they are fake notes and circulate them anyway. If China does not freeze the accounts, then it itself is involved in this counterfeiting ring.

Let me give a simple example. Let's say you own a bank. The NK came into your bank and made a deposit with fake currency of $1000. You accept that deposit. Later, you found out that the currency they gave you were fake. What do you do? You cancel their account and mark those currency as fake in order words: freeze. Other option is to join the counterfeating ring by putting that fake currency into circulation elsewhere. Another option is simply to go to the US and say, "Hey, I know these are fake currencies but can I exchange them for real ones?"

And all the stuff about China wanting good relations with South Korea is absolutely correct. Any part about superpowers(US, China, Russia, Japan) wanting to keep the Koreas apart is also correct.

The part about NK working to find new niche, is absolutely correct.

"The problem is not a matter of nukes. Its essence is sovereignty—and Pyongyang’s frantic efforts to escape its total reliance on its half-hearted and dishonest Chinese patron."
The first part of the sentence is right, but the following part, dishonest??? That's defamation.

There are some more points, but I think I have wrote too much for the day..maybe next time. Can you in the future keep your writings shorter so that it is easier for me to rebut?

2:15 AM

Blogger mahathir_fan said...

Also, I would like to recommend this website. Check out hte interview with Kim Jong Il himself and his adopted daughter.

I would rather trust such sources than someone from a US Army War college.

http://www.kimsoft.com/2003/who_is_kim_jong_il.htm

2:19 AM

Blogger DRJ said...

I agree that US foreign policy should focus on expedient solutions but I still don't see why America would want to prop up Kim Jong-Il and North Korea. I understand that China is a formidable foe and that the US doesn't want to contribute to China's control in the region. Perhaps I'm reading something into your post that isn't there but it's difficult to see how negotiating directly with NK's Kim Jong-Il or even offering NK US protection would be a good idea as long as Kim Jong-Il or others like him are in power.

3:47 PM

Blogger dadmanly said...

Of what possible beneift to the US would it be to have better relations with an (unchanged) NK dictatorship?

Minimize them as a threat? Would that really? What on earth coudl they give us, and why on earth would we think we could trust them?

Risk avoidance is dubious. Why don't we want China to resume control of North Korea? They are an unmitigated disaster, created by China. Them taking over foreign policy and security decisions for NK means they won't attack ROK. It means they own any refugees, and the economic mess.

Yet, it wouldn't enhance or otherwise make more dangerous the Chinese.

The sooner NK collapses from its own appalling condition -- which China would likely want to hasten as a better long term investment than having to keep tolerating the repulsive KJI (yes, even for the Chinese).

This argument seems to value international leverage and alliance building above practical security considerations. Often, allies and partners are more adversarial than predictable enemies. And a lot more trouble.

11:01 AM

Blogger China Hand said...

If I understand DRJ’s and dadmanly’s comments correctly, there is understandable distaste for the idea that the United States should be criticized for ostracizing North Korea instead of engaging with it. However, I think my argument still stands both on a realpolitik and a moral level.

Catastrophic regime change is not going to happen in North Korea. The Chinese won’t let it happen and the United States is not going to go take the extreme diplomatic and military measures needed to make it happen over Chinese objections.

If, as I argue, Chinese policy is now based on the idea that North Korea must be denied the economic as well as military capability that would give Pyongyang the basis for an independent foreign policy—in other words, that Beijing’s preferred option is to keep Pyongyang on a tight leash and dole out no more aid than is sufficient to keep the regime afloat but impoverished and helpless—then I think the question can be asked, morally as well as diplomatically, is a policy of unrelenting hostility toward the Kim Jung Il regime in the best interests of the United States and the North Korean people?

Given the fact that the United States is unable to back up its policy of hostility toward North Korea with the same kind of subversion, destabilization, coalition building, and outright aggression that we used to topple Iraq, I think the answer is No. And I think the U.S. government deserves criticism for persisting with a policy of confrontation long after it was clear that the desired outcome of that policy was well beyond our reach.

There may be few or no practical alternatives to China running the show in North Korea and using that predominance to marginalize U.S. influence in the south. And perhaps Clintonian engagement was doomed to failure and would serve only to prop up Kim Jung Il’s regime. However, a policy of engagement offered a possibility of success for U.S. interests—and I don’t even see the possibility of success in the current U.S. policy toward North Korea.

Thanks to mahathir fan for his detailed comments. Sorry for the lengthy posts. I’d like to keep them shorter, but I think it’s better to document (and test) my assertions with text within the post instead of linking. He raises the important question of whether South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan going nuclear in response to a North Korean test would undercut U.S. influence in the region by removing the justification for the U.S. nuclear umbrella. It’s interesting to consider how that factored into Kim Jung Il’s decision.

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