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Blogger Geffyl said...

"It is not in the dice to hold our destiny but in ourselves."

That being said, this was a very interesting read. There's more of role than of roll about our hobby. That tends to be forgotten with our "big-payoff-seeking" culture.

Everyone wants to be Superman without a Kryptonite allergy.

June 6, 2012 at 12:07 PM

Blogger DHBoggs said...

I'm curious; can you share where you submitted your article? I haven't come across a journal that seemed friendly to the more philosophical aspects of gaming.

June 6, 2012 at 5:01 PM

Blogger Endymion said...

I haven't found one either, although I think that Extrapolation (the journal) might be open to such things. When I reworked the essay, however, I moved it away from gaming specifically and focused more on what the gaming motif in the story implies about the 1930s pulps and (more broadly) ideology.

I think, though, that anchoring a discussion of gaming in more widely-accepted literature (like Leiber) might enable publication on gaming. It would be pushing the academic envelope, however (as you suggest). There has been some controversy about the scholarly study of popular fantasy -- most fantasy theorists want to ignore the popular stuff, but some feel that gives a very false sense of the field.

Thanks to both of you for reading, by the way. I appreciate the comments.

June 7, 2012 at 5:40 AM

Blogger bombasticus said...

Happy to see this.

June 17, 2012 at 9:20 PM

Blogger bombasticus said...

Something a bit more substantive on second reading: how does "Adept's Gambit" fit into this landscape that shifts between "realistic" historical fiction -- the fields we know -- and the pure flights of wish fulfillment that come after? It's a strange story and as far as I know almost entirely undiscussed within the Nehwon cycle.

June 17, 2012 at 9:30 PM

Blogger Endymion said...

"Adept's Gambit" always seems a little out of place, I think maybe because it's the first one he wrote and it went through many revisions, many based on the advice of Lovecraft who himself often wrote stories that blurred the borders of historical fact and fantasy. So, there's a generic influence there -- Leiber was cutting his teeth and searching for a market and mode to express these free play stories that had developed with Fischer. There's more that could be done with the historical aspects, though, especially since he COULD have fairly easily purged them in a final revision and situated the whole thing in Nehwon (I always wanted to visit Tilsilinilit -- spelling?). Since he didn't, he probably wanted to make a point.

I think Leiber often (always?) saw fantasy as a reflection of reality, the two bleeding together in a metaphor reflecting on cultural and ideological influences as well as psychological theories of reality construction. Bruce Byfield's "Witches of the Mind" explores some aspects of this, but I think more recent notions of the relationship between fantasy and paranoia get us closer to what Leiber might be getting at. Anra's castle at the end is a physical embodiment of his mind and castles are typical fantasy fare. Are all constructions of reality simply paranoid fantasy and do Faf and Mouser become drawn into that reality as puppet-characters under the thumb of their author/master/Anra/Leiber? There's definitely something there (but probably more interesting than what I'm seeing right now).

Anyway, thanks for reading.

June 22, 2012 at 1:04 PM

Blogger bombasticus said...

Thanks for the reply and again for the original. I like where this is going and think we can tease out what's in there. Just not today!

June 22, 2012 at 4:36 PM

Blogger Rob Kuntz said...

Nice article and departure point from my original commentary.

My thoughts are somewhat sparse, but here goes: The actual preference of the market (published and sold fantasy) has gravitated towards the epic sweep of life ever since the first fantasy was written, which was an epic, and which was the Odyssey by Homer. Back then there were no printing presses or TVs and the greatest avenue of expression was the he oral, whether through direct story telling or in the budding performing arts of Greece. Today, by contrast, story relation has shifted into a lower gear as mass communication/consumerism merged--mere story telling has shifted into print and electronic feeds and this is how the masses receive this feed. Now, Enter RPG which collides with this paradigm and should, given its intrinsic form, shift the paradigm back to the revered standard of story telling. Instead it is gobbled up in the sweep of "modernized fiction", formalized and sold. With that comes a need to keep the masses interested because the competition is strong due to globalization of communication (no longer must we walk 20 leagues to see a performance of "The Frogs" when we can go online, click a TV or saunter 5 minutes to a a local theater). In keeping the masses interested comes the formula epic. Bigger. Bigger. More sweeping. Over and over.

We would probably all agree that anything can be epic: To a child eying a leaf for the first time, for instance. In that is contained the world, at least for the child.

This also touches upon why story telling, rather than story reading, or story repeating, actually informs and grows us more, IMO, than does being otherwise transported through someone else's window on life.

Rambling aside. Now to coffee

June 30, 2012 at 12:21 PM

Blogger Endymion said...

Nice. Thanks for replying.

And Homer was originally story TELLING rather than reading -- the Iliad and Odyssey arising from an oral tradition, as did Gilgamesh, an epic predating Homer by several centuries. In some recent investigations into Leiber, I felt that D&D's original episodic feel likely arose from the nature of the pulps. They were short stories, woven together into larger arcs. I imagine Gary liked those a fair amount. So, market and generic forces shaped the original feel of the game and then there was a culture shift in the 70's and 80's. I'd be interested to speculate on why that happened. Was it just Gary's increased absence from the Lake Geneva hub (developing the cartoon in California and then being ousted) or a broader cultural trend, maybe younger folks raised on Tolkien rather than Conan?

Hmmmm . . . .

June 30, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Blogger Rob Kuntz said...

Yes, Gilgamesh has it by a nose.

The market push, if you read my last interview at Hill Cantons, started with a creative side-step into the promised land of money. This lead to a dumbed down version of the game from what we playtested and as originally published. Key t othis were PM adventures with a formulaic mode in story (A, B, C structure); and that exists to this day. This canned approach COULD have been depleted with the rise of the so-called OSR, but instead they replicated it as well (You are what you consume; thus you promote what you are...). Gary was not absent for this; he was the director of it. Thus the :"change" was not cultural, but now due to that same culture shift there is little room for reclaiming a past where 100% of all gamers playing the Original game were creators.

June 30, 2012 at 8:05 PM

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