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Anonymous Anonymous said...

For what it's worth, in my Carcosa D&D campaign the PCs re-roll their hit points at the beginning of each combat. Yes, it's insane. :)

April 2, 2009 at 1:37 AM

Blogger Tim Knight said...

I was refering to what I sought in my games as "old school" before I knew of this Old School Renaissance.

I have harkend back to the stories I've read about such settings as Greyhawk, Arduin and Blackmoor since I printed my first campaign guidelines book for players in 1988 (I'd been actually playing RPGS of all stripes for over a decade by then).

That, now, returning to RPGs, after a 15 or so year break, I have chosen to use Labyrinth Lord - following a stint with Castles & Crusades - is a sign of my eagerness to find a streamlined system that allows for quick dungeon creation and play that my group can easily grasp (it's just a game to them, they are not invested in the system and have busy lives these days with jobs, families etc).

That it is a retro-clone of an old D&D system is a co-incidence, I believe.

April 2, 2009 at 3:46 AM

Blogger Rob Kuntz said...

Eric makes very solid points here and those we have together recently discussed.

When it comes down to it, and as I've stated for years and years to hundreds of players and DMs, or even prospective writers and designers, if your players across from you (as a DM) are excited, are leaning forward on the edge of their seats, that you find them calling and asking you questions eager to play again, then you can be assured that the fantasy aspect of a game is being presented in such a way that the actual game rules meld into the act seamlessly. If that's "Old School" then that concept extends as far back and beyond the point of D&D's conception and to thousands of games which over hundreds of years have achieved that very effect, that of fun and enchantment winning out in a game.

That movements exist are unquestionable. That Old School movements seek to honor the perceived foundation of the game is also a truth. That DnD in its day was not a movement is also undeniable. It was an expression of design and one that was in motion. Constant motion. My confusion has risen while watching that same motion get codified into a realm where it slows down to its barest speed, which seems to predate the design event which has already transpired and which by course moved on with its intended motion. I find this image as contradictory as understanding what Old and New School are, as both seem only reactionary from two different POVs.

April 2, 2009 at 7:19 AM

Blogger grodog said...

Some good comments in response over at Mike's/chgowiz's blog: http://oldguyrpg.blogspot.com/2009/04/heavy-thinking-for-thursday.html

Allan.

April 2, 2009 at 11:14 AM

Blogger Benoist said...

I couldn't agree more, Eric. I think you've put your finger on exactly what I find objectionable in "old-school canon" - that there was no such thing as a canon back in the day.

I cam from a gaming environment that grasped the game and ran with it to make it much more than the sum of its written parts. My much older cousin, who introduced me to D&D all these years ago, was running a T1-4 campaign that is still running to this day. They took the game and one of its module and made it their own. They plugged some bits of Greg Stafford's Gloranthan mythology, started a whole universe where sons and grandsons of the first characters follow in their ancestors footsteps, tweaked the rules, borrowed here and invented there... these are my "old school" origins.

I do not believe in a worship of OD&D on its own merits. I also witness the subtle revisionism you are talking about. What I personally see in this game, as well as you guys here, is a way to reach to what you called the spirit of the old guard and reach for the stars from this point onward.

OD&D is like a barter, a base for fantasy and enchantment. From there, anything's possible - anything ought to be!

I think we need all need to be more vocal about this risk of "old school fundamentalism". "Retro-clones", "old school mags" and "traditional megadungeons" constitute a reach for the spirit of the old guard, but it very well may stop there and just recycled ideas in a constrained environment, until people just get bored with it and move on to other, yes, fads.

I truly see this as a starting point that may provide opportunities to reach for other, different stars than the ones visited so far during the past 30 years of the game's evolution. New doors and possibilities might be open if we reach for them. If we don't, then we dishonor the very spirit we try to grasp.

April 2, 2009 at 11:53 AM

Blogger Benoist said...

I just posted a more developed version of these thoughts on my blog.

April 2, 2009 at 1:43 PM

Blogger E N Shook said...

Some quick clarifications:

Old school is an excellent descriptive term for identifying what people do, love or cherish after spending years doing it. It's highly useful.

But, there's also a movement afoot, which can be described as a revival, which I dearly appreciate. Using the term old school to identify that movement limits its appeal. How does the old school gain *new* members?

If there is something new about the movement, why not identify it as a new movement? It seems sensible to me. Besides, the new is inherent in any creative project, and this is intensified by the scope of fantasy.

Is embracing OD&D essential to the movement? That doesn't seem true to me. If the bare bones of OD&D appeal because they can be more easily tricked out and experimented with, then let's get right down to a full rules set that's based upon the FRPG kernel. But then, we're not so old school, now, are we?

But really, to do this, the idea of the fantasy world must be addressed, first.

Focusing upon the rules will only eventually create a fundamentalist gap, not a revival. Why not just head that off now?

The term "old school" raised as a flag over fundamentalism is clearly more fitting than old school raised over a movement fresh with new ideas.

April 2, 2009 at 6:08 PM

Blogger Benoist said...

Is embracing OD&D essential to the movement? That doesn't seem true to me. If the bare bones of OD&D appeal because they can be more easily tricked out and experimented with, then let's get right down to a full rules set that's based upon the FRPG kernel. But then, we're not so old school, now, are we?

Just to precise my thoughts on this: no, I do not believe that OD&D is essential to the movement. My remarks here were personal, really.

As for the complete rules set, I think that, precisely, getting right down to it would would avoid an evolution that only goes through the world, the immersion, and the play itself, and just end up in a failed experiment that would emulate what's already been done before.

When you are talking about focusing on the world first, what do you have in mind? Could you give me some examples that would help me understand what you mean practically?

April 2, 2009 at 7:06 PM

Blogger Rob Kuntz said...

Perhaps Eric means, "The world is your oyster"?

I see merit in siding with the FULL re-expression of D&D. When it comes down to it, you have openness as the guiding exhortation, and that is embraced in whatever ways that each DM wants to. On the other hand, we have at best "restatements" of the game; but if these fall short in anyway of fully expressing the original, then they can only be at best considered revisions of same. The fine line here is representation and how the restatement uses the information to engender the "movement". The dichotomies, at least for me, are 1) The game never stopped its motion, and thus to restate it is somewhat taking a backward glance at it whereas the game and its predecessors are known and still played; 2)thus, how does one restate an open game which can be different for each participant and which by realization is still promulgating itself, even in different forms, and even as I write this? This is perhaps where the fundamental view takes root? I dunno. Perhaps some believe that the game should have stopped somewhere in its evolution. If that is so, god bless us all now that that didn't happen in 1974. Life for many thousands of folks would have been a lot poorer in retrospect if it had.

Rediscovering roots is fine. I like roots, for if you follow them long enough you find that they reach all the way back in time, and thus by the obverse, all the way into the future, as well.

April 2, 2009 at 10:01 PM

Blogger E N Shook said...

About the World First proposition:

The rules should be entirely bent on accommodating the fantasy world. For example, the artifice in 3rd edition that states you cannot run while blind is absurd. I've done it. You can run while blind. It can be painful. So the rules should be written with the possibility that blind running might be painful. A PC stating they will run while blind should not be met with a metaphysical impossibility. The rules in an FRPG should be concerned with action RESOLUTION, not action PREVENTION.

Let me refer to a very interesting passage in Matt Finch's Old School Primer, which can be downloaded here: http://www.lulu.com/content/e-book/quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/3019374. Although I would express this differently, and find exception with pieces of the document, his effort here is exactly what I believe we should focus on more. The following quote gels well with worlds first, rules second.

"it’s not a “game setting” which somehow always produces challenges of just
the right difficulty for the party’s level of experience. The party has no “right” only to
encounter monsters they can defeat, no “right” only to encounter traps they can disarm, no “right” to invoke a particular rule from the books, and no “right” to a die roll in every particular circumstance."

(By the way, Matt is currently offering this download for free!)

In fact, the believability of a world is dependent on a fluidity that some rules systems simply don't allow. In 4E you would be more likely to come on a sign that says, "world under construction," which is exactly what Skip Williams did to our party back in the day. It is only when you embrace the rules as the substance of the game that you lose the ability to manifest the fullness of the world.

let me risk suggesting that major edition changes are cursed to produce this limitation. Thus, our move toward the original.

But, we could do better, by admitting the demands of a fantasy world and then conforming the rules to the world.

While you've got Matt's document open, his point on "rulings, not rules," was also keen on, IMHO.

April 2, 2009 at 10:30 PM

Blogger ATOM said...

Pretty good topic! I think the "Old school" term means different things to different people.I was always of the opinion that players that dwell constantly within the rules are missing the point.Myself as a player, love to be surprized...whether it be by new creature types, to new/different situations.
If players get too accustomed to specific rules,the magic vanishes and game mechanics take over.House rules and conversions solve this for me.

Also the Old-School moniker for me makes me think of a particular look.Whether it be art wise or literal content. It generates a particular feeling, nostalgia, excitement, lacking from much of the modern stuff.

April 3, 2009 at 6:15 AM

Blogger Benoist said...

I understand much better now, Eric. I can only shake my head in complete agreement (by the way, this Quick Old-School Primer really is an excellent document).

I'm really excited to see what the games we now have will give us that will be different, and better, than what we've had before in terms of evolution of the game.

I guess that now that we are aware of this we can all participate in ways to make this happen. That's the great thing about this ongoing discussion.

April 3, 2009 at 11:00 AM

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March 28, 2010 at 2:59 PM

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