Comments on Vigilance: The Gazette Publishes an Offensive Slur

I'm glad to help!

2007-07-31T22:46:00.000-04:00

I'm glad to help!

"My father used to blow me off when I couldn't exp...

2007-07-31T18:07:00.000-04:00

"My father used to blow me off when I couldn't express my feelings rationally...and if you could explain something in simple declarative sentences then the problem just didn't exist."

Wow Dana you're good. That explains my relationship with my parents to a tee.

I've been depressed since I was 13 (38 Now), yet they continue to blame me for not expressing myself adequately. THEN, when I do explain my problems in coherent detail, they eventually conclude that I'm making excuses. And then of course I feel humiliatingly insulted.

It's like because I'm capable of understanding the hell that I'm going through, I should know better than to be going through it!

And it's not even anything about being gay necessarily, they're just trying to "fix" my happiness (or lack of it).

Thank you for sharing that though, it's revealing, and quite vindicating.

I do have a number of thought experiments that hel...

2007-07-31T16:40:00.000-04:00

I do have a number of thought experiments that help men understand gender identity as a brain function rather than as a simple "I look down, see my penis and know I'm a boy" phenomenon.

But it is very hard for someone who has never had an issue with either gender identity or sexual orientation to understand we've always felt that something has been terribly wrong, even when we couldn't adequately express it.

My father used to blow me off when I couldn't express my feelings rationally, because he thought poetry and metaphor were nonsense, and if you could explain something in simple declarative sentences then the problem just didn't exist. He's subsequently learned there are several different kinds of knowing.

You really have to insist that they imagine what i...

2007-07-31T15:19:00.000-04:00

You really have to insist that they imagine what its like to be BORN in the wrong body.

Not that that's even a practical suggestion for most heterosexuals, but without that simple yet fundamental paradigm shift, there seems to be no chance of breaking through with the die-hards.

Even if this solidifies their conclusion that we are deluded for being same-gender attracted or trans-gendered, at least it would help them grapple with the magnitude of our conviction about ourselves.

I stand by my statements. That you have the chutzp...

2007-07-29T22:51:00.000-04:00

I stand by my statements. That you have the chutzpah to challenge me on gender identity is remarkable.

And, yes, the Shady Grove physicians were conned by Ruth Jacobs. I stand by that, too.

TROLL - INTENT:The general element, that determine...

2007-07-29T21:42:00.000-04:00

TROLL - INTENT:
The general element, that determines whether a malicious user is a troll or not, is the level of indignant emotions present in the person...

(Indignation - annoyance provoked by what is perceived as unfair treatment)

Continuing:
A troll's main goal is usually to arouse anger and frustration among the message board's other participants, and will write whatever it takes to achieve this end. One popular trolling strategy is the practice of Winning by Losing. While the victim is trying to put forward solid and convincing facts to prove his position, the troll's only goal is to infuriate its prey. The troll takes (what it knows to be) a badly flawed, wholly illogical argument, and then vigorously defends it while mocking and insulting its prey. The troll looks like a complete fool, but this is all part of the plan. The victim becomes noticeably angry by trying to repeatedly explain the flaws of the troll's argument. Provoking this anger was the troll's one and only goal from the very beginning.

Though he or she may try to claim otherwise, by the insults the poster has thrown out, that seems to describe give it a rest big time.

aunt bea--I never disagreed with the APA that biol...

2007-07-29T21:04:00.000-04:00

aunt bea--

I never disagreed with the APA that biology may have an influence as one of 3 factors. I specifically used the analagy that 'tallness' contributing to someone being a basketball player is not the same as being 'born' as basketball player. I also did not call Gender Theory circular logic. If you can't keep up, please stay on the sidelines.

Dr. Beyer:

270 other MDs were all conned but not you? My, my, you stand heads above the entire medical community.

No, you are incorrect. The dramtically higher risks associated with anal sex are not specified. Another weak attempt to justify your lack of action.

You apparently do not understand the difference between gender theory and gender identity. You also do not appear to understand how theory fits into the scientific method. This and your sweeping statement that it's just a fact shows that it is not I who is ignorant.

Perhaps you might try actually reading some peer reviewed journals other than NEJM.

OK -- the Shady Grove physicians were conned into ...

2007-07-29T19:29:00.000-04:00

OK -- the Shady Grove physicians were conned into signing that petition which I feel no obligation to support. As for the risk factors to which you allude, again, they are in the unit of STIs, where they should be. And they will again be considered when that unit is up for revision this year.

As for your ignorant statement about gender theory and circular reasoning, the simple fact is that the vast majority of scientists accept the existence of gender identity. I'd like you to point out some people who don't. I do not make a habit of reading gender theory, and I am only referring to articles published in reputable scientific journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine.

Here's a question for you -- how can a child with no pelvis and hence no genitalia have a gender identity?

Reputable scientists don't withhold facts to advan...

2007-07-29T18:21:00.000-04:00

Reputable scientists don't withhold facts to advance their own position when that may endanger innocents.

You could be talking about reparative or conversion therapists with that statement. Such therapists are not reputable scientists because they "endanger innocents" by failing to warn potential clients (or in the case of minors, the clients' parents) that their therapy fails to change sexual orientation for most people who attempt it. Reparative therapists also fail to warn prospective clients that attempts to alter sexual orientation can cause complications. SUch efforts often increases clients' internalized homophobia, which causes many problems such as depression, anxiety, alcohol and drug abuse, and suicidal feelings. These negative outcomes are often experienced by many patients who attempt change their sexual orientation.

Shidlo and Schroeder (2002) found 88% of gays who attempted reparative therapy failed to change their sexual orientation and only 3% were successful. NARTH's Nicolosi claims a 30% success rate for his reparative therapy patients, which of course means he has a 70% failure rate. Does Nicolosi warn propective clients of either the 70% failure rate of his therapy or the complication rate? Apparently not.

Speaking of NARTH, they sure seems to embrace the "circular logic" of Gender Theory.

...biological influences may indeed influence some people toward homosexuality; recent studies point to prenatal-hormonal influences, especially in men, that result in a low-masculinized brain; also, there may be genetic factors in some people -- both of which would affect gender identity, and therefore sexual orientation.
http://www.narth.com/menus/positionstatements.html

Masculinization of the brain occurs through relatively high levels of androgens, whereas feminization occurs in the relative absence of androgens. Some studies suggest that homosexually oriented men are more likely to show evidence of brain development that is low-masculinized (in effect, relatively female-like).
http://www.narth.com/docs/triplets.html

By the way GIAR, with your penchant for anonymity, you'd be a great bunkermate for the VP IMHO.

Once again Dr. Beyer relies totally on circular lo...

2007-07-29T14:53:00.000-04:00

Once again Dr. Beyer relies totally on circular logic that all comes back to being totally vested in Gender Theory...a legitimate but nevertheless radical and unproven concept.

This is an understandable reaction formation.

"There are more than enough intersex conditions to prove that point." Intersex conditions prove absolutely nothing about Gender Theory. Gender Theory tries to explain intersex, not vice-versa.

Once again, circular logic that places the theory as the proof.

You want to claim credibility as a scientist/MD, but your statements validate a willingness to ignore and corrupt the scientific method for your own purposes.

Thus, your feigned mystification as to the relevance of Mengele 'credentials' versus credibility, actions, and viewpoints is tranparent.

"I don't understand why this concept, which most children understand, is so hard for so many of you."

Because children don't know any better. Exactly why education should be factual and balanced.

And exactly why you have refused to support inclusion of any medical warnings from other MDs in the curriculum which might disturb the only narrative you wish them to receive.

You ignore answering because you cannot justify your actions: a direct conflict with your duty as an MD--a professional status you want to exploit but not live up to when too inconvenient.

As the saying goes, "It's not about truth, it's about power." Yup...you're perfect for politics.

My point, to the fellow who mentioned Dr. Mengele,...

2007-07-29T00:01:00.000-04:00

My point, to the fellow who mentioned Dr. Mengele, as if he's at all relevant to this discussion, is that you know you're a man because your brain determines your sense of gender identity. It has nothing to do with the presence or absence of a penis. There are more than enough intersex conditions to prove that point.

I am not a woman because I have a vagina. I am a woman because I have a female brain and have always felt female. I've simply rearranged my genitals to correspond to my brain.

I don't understand why this concept, which most children understand, is so hard for so many of you.

Dear friends,In many gatherings of LGBT and allied...

2007-07-28T23:50:00.000-04:00

Dear friends,

In many gatherings of LGBT and allied people, as an introductory activity, we often ask people to say what their 'preferred gender pronouns' are (i.e. masculine, feminine or gender-neutral), along with such things as name, where you're from, etc. We do this so we can be polite to one another. Did you anti-lgbt people catch that? Polite. We should value politeness. I am myself intolerant of rudeness.

A reason for being intolerant of the ex-gay claptrap isn't that ex-gay people don't exist, but that ex-gay speakers and 'supporters' are invariably anti-lgbt. PFOX, for all that it presents itself as simply advocating acceptance of ex-gays, recently sent us an email defending use of the word 'fag' in discussion of gay people and sexual orientation. Exodus, for all its front as a referral agency for transformational ministries, opposes the Employment Non-discrimination Act, the Matthew Shepard Act, and supports don't ask/don't tell and sodomy laws. I fully support the rights of people who identify as ex-gay to be free of harassment and discrimination. However, the ex-gay movement is most noteworthy for its attacks on lgbt people, and loses all credibility as a result.

Orin said:

don't, for the life of me, understand this advocacy of the "ex-gay" in the curriculum...it strikes me as weak, and well...nutty."

God bless you Orin. I was involved in the ex-gay movement for many years, and if we ever meet can tell you stories that would peel the skin off your eyes.

Yours in the Pacific Time Zone,

Robert

Anonymous said... "give it a rest"--you posts are ...

2007-07-28T14:04:00.000-04:00

Anonymous said...
"give it a rest"--you posts are familiar in their voice. what are your credentials?

July 28, 2007 6:15 AM

Opposing forces love to change the topic by attacking the other's credibility. This facilitates not having to defend their own position or defeat the opposing narrative.

The only credential I wish to claim is a voice of rational, reasonable, factual argument which is open to scutiny and correction.

Statments and positions either meet those standards or do not. They are not limited to people with terminal degrees and initials after their names.

Josef Mengele was a Ph.D. and M.D. so it's really not that important that my professional credentials happen to qualify me as an expert--or scientist as Dr. Beyer now seems to prefer.

Dana Beyer, M.D. said... "One extended question --...

2007-07-28T12:50:00.000-04:00

Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

"One extended question -- what would you do without your penis? Could you function? Would you still be a man? And if so, how could you be a man without a penis?"

Are post-operative double mastectomy and/or full hysterectomy women medically classified as half-men or some new gender?

Losing or altering body parts, intentionally or unintentionally, may affect functionality and appearance but doesn't change sex.

BTW...

1. Reputable scientists don't withhold facts to advance their own position when that may endanger innocents.

2. "Science" does not speak. The scientific method yields data which is then interpreted by humans--for better or for worse.

"give it a rest"--you posts are familiar in their ...

2007-07-28T06:15:00.000-04:00

"give it a rest"--you posts are familiar in their voice. what are your credentials?

"The fake formerly anon names don't fool anyone. J...

2007-07-27T21:08:00.000-04:00

"The fake formerly anon names don't fool anyone. Just the same small minded, mean idiot posting again and again. How sad- and yet how typical."

Actually, the anon you so detest has been posting under the "joe" pseudonyms.

I think I'll be Jor-el today.

I don't know the other anons that have been posting this week.

Hey, Give it a Rest,One extended question -- what ...

2007-07-27T21:07:00.000-04:00

Hey, Give it a Rest,

One extended question -- what would you do without your penis? Could you function? Would you still be a man?

And if so, how could you be a man without a penis?

Thanks Andrea for that deeply intellectual analysi...

2007-07-27T20:51:00.000-04:00

Thanks Andrea for that deeply intellectual analysis. Yes...so typical.

The fake formerly anon names don't fool anyone. Ju...

2007-07-27T20:33:00.000-04:00

The fake formerly anon names don't fool anyone. Just the same small minded, mean idiot posting again and again. How sad- and yet how typical.

Dr. Beyer:You want to imply an insult by playing t...

2007-07-27T17:10:00.000-04:00

Dr. Beyer:

You want to imply an insult by playing the scientist card?

As an "MD" did you demand inclusion of common medical warnings from CDC, Surgeon General , et al in the curriculum as requested by 270 of your fellow Montgomery County MDs as important to health and well being of students?

As you say 50 years and its still classified as GID.

The pressure to remove GID from DSM is because its classfication as a disorder is problematic with homosexuality even though GID was added to DSM almost a decade afterwards. That is the crux of the current writing in the professional debate.

People with Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) and BDD also feel compelled to radically change their bodies by even removing limbs.

The surgical 'cure' can alleviate the discordant psychological distress but the efficacy of the cure doesn't illuminate underlying pathology of the presenting symptoms or suggest normalcy.

Unlike you, I won't presume how much good you've done based on your personal situation and viewpoint.

Try not to undo all that by rationalizing that restricting information to your worldview, self-interest, and the goals of LGBT theorists is the greater good.

Oh it's clear as day who the hatemongers are. It's...

2007-07-27T16:37:00.000-04:00

Oh it's clear as day who the hatemongers are. It's easy to tell which posters here hate people for their sexual orientation and gender identity.

Emproph got it right. Each one of you should: Just say that you hate gay/transgender people and be done with it. You'd at least retain some measure of credibility.

Emproph:Try learning to read. It's not me who's o...

2007-07-27T14:41:00.000-04:00

Emproph:

Try learning to read. It's not me who's offended by the pronoun.

The rest of your rant just shows who you really are: a hatemonger that disguises it by projecting it onto others.

During the years Grace Harley spent living as a ma...

2007-07-27T08:14:00.000-04:00

During the years Grace Harley spent living as a man, I would have respected that decision and used male pronouns. Now that she is living as a woman, I have no problem using female pronouns. I am simply showing respect for a fellow human being. Sorry you don't get that. Anonjoe/yousef apparently has not learned to "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" at his church or in all his scripture study.

Research has repeatedly documented that the vast majority of gay people who attempt conversion therapy fail and many are harmed by the experience. Our schools should not encourage our teens to engage in such risky so-called "therapy." And it's not really "therapy" anyway. It's "religious counseling" according to Exodus and "coaching" according to Richard Cohen. It is not covered by insurance and there are no requirements to meet state health codes for the facilities where it is offered.

Here in MCPS schools there is not one Gay-To-Straight Club but there are several Gay-Straight Alliances, indicating that LGBT teens are much more common locally than ex-gay and ex-transgender teens. The extremely rare person who claims to be ex-gay or ex-transgender also claims to be straight. I haven't heard that any such person has stepped forward at MCPS, have you Theresa? Nobody's claiming they don't exist, just that they are extremely rare. However, even though they are rare, they should be happy because the entire multi-week sex ed curriculum is about the heterosexuality they now embrace, except for the 90 minutes of revised new lessons called "Respect for Differences in Human Sexuality."

I've actually fought for all my patients, and I th...

2007-07-27T07:34:00.000-04:00

I've actually fought for all my patients, and I think I'm not exaggerating to say I've probably done more good on this earth than you ever will.

I would treat a gay patient or a trans patient no different than I would an individual who once lived as gay or trans. It's irrelevant.

Yes, it's still called "gender identity disorder," since the manual was last revised back in 1992, but it is not recognized as such. The term was coined by psychiatrists before it was understood that everyone has a gender identity. If it were a disorder of gender identity, then fifty years of trying to cure it as such would have worked. Instead, the cure is social transition and genital reconstruction, which has a 98% success rate. Sounds like a done deal to me, and any other scientist in this group, of which you obviously are not a part.

Give It A Rest! said... “You may find the use of '...

2007-07-27T06:21:00.000-04:00

Give It A Rest! said...
“You may find the use of 'he' as disrpectful and impolite but it is in fact biological accurate.”
___
Let me get this “straight.” You’re offended by the use of a pronoun, he vs. she, for the sake of respect -- but you think people who are transgendered are the problem for existing?

Good god man, if you’re offended by sound waves, THAT’S a mental disorder.

Just say that you hate gay/transgender people and be done with it. You'd at least retain some measure of credibility.