Comments on Vigilance: Ike Signs, The Post Suckers for the Re-Framing

I don't mind, Jim. It part of what I do.When peopl...

2007-11-27T14:03:00.000-05:00

I don't mind, Jim. It part of what I do.

When people such as Jimi P show any semblance of actually wanting to understand, I feel it's my obligation to teach. Yes, I've said this before, and maybe you could put together some of those "lectures" and link to them so I don't have to repeat myself. But as long as I have the time then I'll do it.

Dana, thank you for your persistence in educating ...

2007-11-27T13:14:00.000-05:00

Dana, thank you for your persistence in educating all of us. Because these are unusual and complicated conditions and most people don't know anything about them, there is a lot of confusion and ignorance, to which I plead as guilty as anyone. I'm sure you get tired of going over this same ground again and again, but I'm glad you do.

JimK

Reiner performed this study not simply to help his...

2007-11-27T12:57:00.000-05:00

Reiner performed this study not simply to help his patients with cloacal exstrophy, but to PROVE that gender identity exists. Believe it or not, until recently it was one of those obvious things that no one had ever bothered to prove. And I know personally scientists and physicians, including Paul McHugh, who denied the existence of gender identity until Bill's study.

Chromosomal sex, which is a lot more complicated than you imply, has been around about eighty years. It's simplistic, and like most things, works in most cases. Something like Newtonian physics which works under the limiting conditions of the classical world, but not in the hugely larger quantum and relativistic universes.
So XX is generally female in development, and XY male. But there are XO females (Turner's syndrome) and XXY males (and transsexual women -- I personally know three) (Klinefelter's syndrome). And many, many more.

But -- we have learned that there are at least 54 genes on our DNA (and not just the sex chromosomes) -- that are involved in the earliest stages of sexual development, before a drop of hormone is produced. These are genes that produce proteins and enzymes, as well as genes that regulate the spatiotemporal production of those proteins.
One simple example -- the SRY gene. It is a critical component of the gene cascade that produces testicles, though we're not yet sure of its exact role in the cascade. The SRY gene is usually on the Y chromosome. If it is mutated or missing, you will get an XY female in all her glory. Conversely, you can have that SRY gene appear on an X chromosome, and you end up with an XX male, indistinguishable from an XY male.

If you're interested in learning more, check out the work of Dr. Edward Vilain, at USC, I believe.

That's just chromosomes and some genes. The genes interact in complicated feedback loops, and other variations have been discovered. It's quite fascinating.
There has been one particular genetic variation found in a group of transsexual women over in Europe. There will be others.

Once you get to testicular development, you have to be able to produce testosterone. And if you do, and you secrete it normally, you then need to have androgen receptors appear in functional form on the right tissues at the right times to have normal male development. There is a hormone called MIH, Mullerian Inhibiting Hormone, which causes the female reproductive structures to regress. And on and on.

All this happens in the first two months, during the life of the embryo. Once you get to the fetal stage, it gets even more complicated, as brain development begins.

The introduction of endocrine disruptors, such as DES, at this stage leads to female brain development in the presence of testicles and testosterone production. This produces an intersex condition -- male genitals and female brain, with the brain being the slightly more important organ -- known as transsexualism.

Check out the work of John McLachlan from Tulane, who showed this in rodents over thirty years ago.

I would hope this would open your eyes to the complexity and beauty of human development; it's not as simple as it looks.

Reiner's paper was a cautionary tale as well that if you have a Y chromosome you should look for testicles, because if you have testosterone production with androgen receptors in a fetus you will likely get a male gender identity. The usual experience of urological surgeons with genitally ambiguous children has been to make them into girls, because it is far, far easier to create a vagina than build a penis.

But that presupposes, and it was believed for thirty years thanks to John Money, that genitals determined gender identity. That is now generally accepted to be wrong, or at least way too simplistic, without taking other biological phenomena into account.

Transsexual men and women prove that no matter how intense the gender socialization, you cannot force a change in gender identity. There is no therapy, there are no drugs, no religious conversion that can accomplish that.

There are people who blog here who might want to believe otherwise, though I don't know why they care so much. It's just not the way it is, and you're wasting your time trying to force others to be miserable, and you're certainly not being very Christian in doing so.

I would hope, however, that some of you might recognize the key social fact relevant to all the fire and brimstone recently, from all this -- that transsexual women are, and have always been, women. Therefore, there will be no men in the women's room. Genitalia are a sign, and not always signifying the same thing.
Conversely, transsexual men are, and have been, men, and they will not be using the women's room and scaring all the girls there, but will, rather, be in the men's room where they will assimilate and do their thing, just like all the guys.

"You are assuming that chromosomal sex and neurolo...

2007-11-27T11:25:00.000-05:00

"You are assuming that chromosomal sex and neurological sex are synonymous."

I'm assuming it until I see proof to the contrary. The study Dana cited buttresses the view that the two are interchangeable.

"That's not the case,"

Still, waiting for any evidence of this.

"I don't know why it's so important to you to deny the fact that trans people exist. Maybe you could think about that."

It's because they are trying to impose a requirement that we treat them in a certain way. They have pushed the issue and basically said "you've got to get on one side or the other." I'm actually open to the possibility that Dana's view is correct, I just don't think there is evidence enough to establish a requirement that everyone must believe it.

Anon,You are assuming that chromosomal sex and neu...

2007-11-27T10:44:00.000-05:00

Anon,

You are assuming that chromosomal sex and neurological sex are synonymous. That's not the case, any more than it's the case that genital sex and gonadal sex are synonymous, etc.

I don't know why it's so important to you to deny the fact that trans people exist. Maybe you could think about that.

But, Dana, in these studies the incorrect assignme...

2007-11-27T09:41:00.000-05:00

But, Dana, in these studies the incorrect assignment was because they ignored the Y chromosome and simply tried to change someone by surgery. Isn't that the same thing that transexuals do? And, in the study, the gender identity didn't change even after the surgery. No one asked the infants how they feel, it was determined by their chromosomes.

Am I correct that most who have sex-change operations are not changing to their chromosomal gender?

I don't think anyone denied that people have a "gender identity." We just don't buy that it's based on feelings, which can change, but on biology.

Jimi,Do you ever -- ever -- approach anything with...

2007-11-27T08:10:00.000-05:00

Jimi,

Do you ever -- ever -- approach anything without your mind already made up? Reiner's study was a proof of the existence of gender identity, because people like you kept saying -- "I have a penis; therefore, I am a man."
It took this study to PROVE that was not true to the antediluvians left in medicine, such as Paul McHugh.
It has nothing to do with genital reconstruction in adults; it's about the proper sex assignment in newborns. It's about getting it right in the beginning so people like me don't have to grow up in hell.
All transsexual people do is correct an inaccurate sex assignment at birth. But because people like Theresa are so narrow-minded, and associate anything that looks like a penis (and there is an extremely wide variety of what may look like a penis) with being male, mistakes end up being made.

Yes, Jimi, even doctors make mistakes, especially when information is lacking. And a newborn cannot express its gender.

And contrary to Theresa and Dobson and NARTH, you can't force a gender on to a child who is not primed for it biologically. People have tried and they usually fail.

"For those on this blog who can actually read and ...

2007-11-27T00:30:00.000-05:00

"For those on this blog who can actually read and are interested in learning, the article that brought Paul McHugh in from the dark ages on gender identity was Bill Reiner's in the New England Journal of Medicine, N Engl J Med 350:333, January 22, 2004"

Dr,

I just read the abstract of your cited article. I'll look at the entire text tomorrow but unless I'm missing something here, the study seems to discriminate against sexual reassignment surgery.

Well, in the words of the Monkees, "tomorrow's gonna be another day."

Jimmy P, Ask any physician, check out any recent t...

2007-11-26T22:46:00.000-05:00

Jimmy P,

Ask any physician, check out any recent textbook. Everyone, even the bigot, Paul McHugh, accepts that gender identity is biology. It's a function of your brain sex.

And, if you ever took science in high school, you would know that most higher brain functions have psychological manifestations. That needs no backing up. It's fundamental science.

For those on this blog who can actually read and are interested in learning, the article that brought Paul McHugh in from the dark ages on gender identity was Bill Reiner's in the New England Journal of Medicine, N Engl J Med 350:333, January 22, 2004

"How about you occasionally back up your comments?...

2007-11-26T22:23:00.000-05:00

"How about you occasionally back up your comments?"

Why, sure, Dr. Soon as you start backing up yours.

Here's a good place to start:

"gender identity IS biological with psychological manifestations"

How would you back that up?

Jimmy P

Andrea- not anonI think N. anon really does live s...

2007-11-26T22:10:00.000-05:00

Andrea- not anon
I think N. anon really does live somewhere else. Along with Theresa, he continues to claim that
the "public" and the electorate of this county think the Council and the school Board is crazy and that they will be pushed out of office. Wake up, Nutty- you are the ones who the vast majority of MC think are crazy and you are the ones who will not win (again) in the next election. maybe you can get your buddy Adol to run again- he has a great platform now.

... Also, his biographers paint a picture of a mis...

2007-11-26T21:11:00.000-05:00

... Also, his biographers paint a picture of a misogynist who was violent toward the women in his life ...

Anon, is this supposed to be evidence that Hendrix would have agreed with you, or are you just running a dead guy down?

JimK

The anon that claims to be Jimi P:If you want to p...

2007-11-26T21:02:00.000-05:00

The anon that claims to be Jimi P:

If you want to participate in a discussion, it's recommended that you address the arguments that the other participants have made, rather than the ones you merely wish they had made. Otherwise, you just look weak.

Several times now you have pretended to be conversing with someone who has argued that gender is just something that you decide to put on in the morning, rather than a core, intrinsic attribute of a person. I have seen no one here make that argument.

Again, if you "all" will follow the example of identifying yourselves in some way, I will be happy to address you as individuals. But I'm not interested in playing guessing games about which anon is which.

Jimi P, How about you occasionally back up your co...

2007-11-26T20:43:00.000-05:00

Jimi P,

How about you occasionally back up your comments? Show me where I said gender is relative and you can create your own.

And please explain to me what androgyny is, because no one has brought that up here and you are descending further out of your league.

"Anon, there already was a Jimi H, and he was a gr...

2007-11-26T20:35:00.000-05:00

"Anon, there already was a Jimi H, and he was a great visionary guitarist who would not agree with a single word you have ever said."

You talking Hendrix? I think he would definitely agree with keepng gays out of the army. He got out by pretending to be one, if you believe his biographers.

Also, his biographers paint a picture of a misogynist who was violent toward the women in his life.

Well, I don't believe a word of it. He's made out of gold and can't be sold.

"Yo DumbOne. You sound just like George Wallace at the University of Alabama door."

Could you give us a comparative quote showing what you mean? I know Wallace was racist and I certainly don't support his views. Still, to give the devil his due, outside of MLK and the Kennedys, he was probably the best orator of the sixties. The sixties were the zenith of the American English. It's all been downhill since.

"The guy who yelled "Heil Hitler" is your buddy, the pro-trans-segregation-pogram fascist. The witches who yelled "perverts" are your pals, the bigoted haters."

Really? Thanks for telling me. Who are these "witches", I'm pals with?

Jimi P

Also laughable is when they try to accuse they who...

2007-11-26T20:06:00.000-05:00

Also laughable is when they try to accuse they who simply would like things to remain as they are of heated hate, big bigotry, pogroms and fascism.

Yo DumbOne. You sound just like George Wallace at the University of Alabama door. The guy who yelled "Heil Hitler" is your buddy, the pro-trans-segregation-pogram fascist. The witches who yelled "perverts" are your pals, the bigoted haters.

Anon, there already was a Jimi H, and he was a gre...

2007-11-26T19:52:00.000-05:00

Anon, there already was a Jimi H, and he was a great visionary guitarist who would not agree with a single word you have ever said. Please use another name here.

JimK

"The latest comments exemplify just how simple-min...

2007-11-26T19:39:00.000-05:00

"The latest comments exemplify just how simple-mindedly rigid Theresa's group is. This Anon has conflated sexual orientation with sexual desire with sexual behavior with gender (sexual) identity. Because their world-view is so limited -- white, heterosexual, missionary position, woman subservient to husband -- any difference is terribly threatening to them."

Oh, why can't we all be loose and sophisticated like Dr D? We'd then realize that gender is all relative and we could just create our own. Then, we could all stop being so "threatened" by the county's transgenders and their various escapades in androgyny.

Let a thousand genders bloom and we'll all be free to be- you and me.

Ting!

"If you anons don't bother to distinguish yourselves in any way, we're just going to assume you're the same person. It's entirely up to you."

Not surprising to me that you guys don't care if you get your story straight before you start flying off the handle.

"hey, person who said they don't want someone with male genitals in the bathroom with you. I must quote Ali G- "Is you mental?" Are you a pervert? Are you peeking into the other stalls or grabbing under skirts? You better stay out of any bathroom I am in-my genitals are my business. Normal people are not interested in what is under the skirt or slacks of the person using the next closed stall. You sound like a person with a serious mental problem(and I think there is help you can get). You know what you should want in a public bathroom- doors that close, toilet paper, soap ,towels and a staff that keeps the place clean. Any concerns beyond that- you are the one with a problem- and you definitely have one."

What's so humorous is that TTFers like Dreary spend so much time attempting to ridicule the opposition for making too big a deal out of the bathroom issue. And yet, it was them, through their plant in the County Council staff, Dizzy Dr D, who decided this whole thing was important enough to get the government involved.

The problem with the bill, though, is that they are having the government support a view that has no empirical evidence supporting it: that your gender is whatever you want it to be. If someone says they're a female, you darn well better treat them like one or else answer to the authorities.

Also laughable is when they try to accuse they who simply would like things to remain as they are of heated hate, big bigotry, pogroms and fascism. Do they really think this kind of hyperbole is going to convince a public that already thinks they are off their rocker?

The government- and the liars at TTF- need to back off and let people make up their own mind who they want using their bathrooms.

Again, there is no proof that brains are "hard-wired" to a gender other than your biological one. There is no evidence supporting the notion that trying to make a imagined gender come true by surgery and drugs actually improves the situation. The government should stay out of imaginary realms. They have enough trouble trying to govern the real one.

Jimi H

Andrea- not anonhey, person who said they don't wa...

2007-11-26T18:50:00.000-05:00

Andrea- not anon
hey, person who said they don't want someone with male genitals in the bathroom with you. I must quote Ali G- "Is you mental?" Are you a pervert? Are you peeking into the other stalls or grabbing under skirts? You better stay out of any bathroom I am in-my genitals are my business. Normal people are not interested in what is under the skirt or slacks of the person using the next closed stall. You sound like a person with a serious mental problem(and I think there is help you can get). You know what you should want in a public bathroom- doors that close, toilet paper, soap ,towels and a staff that keeps the place clean. Any concerns beyond that- you are the one with a problem- and you definitely have one.

"The brain vs mind issue is a stupid diversion."Ye...

2007-11-26T17:06:00.000-05:00

"The brain vs mind issue is a stupid diversion."

Yes, it certainly is. We've been trying to get you to see that for quite a long time.

If you anons don't bother to distinguish yourselves in any way, we're just going to assume you're the same person. It's entirely up to you.

The latest comments exemplify just how simple-mind...

2007-11-26T16:43:00.000-05:00

The latest comments exemplify just how simple-mindedly rigid Theresa's group is. This Anon has conflated sexual orientation with sexual desire with sexual behavior with gender (sexual) identity. Because their world-view is so limited -- white, heterosexual, missionary position, woman subservient to husband -- any difference is terribly threatening to them.

So now we're reduced to gay women, trans or otherwise, using the men's room, and, logically, gay men, trans or otherwise, using the women's room. How lovely!

So tell me, Anon, just what you expect your wife (hard to believe you could possibly be married, but stranger things have happened)to do when a straight trans man is using the women's room when she's there as well? He has a vagina so he has to use the women's room. He's also straight so he would undoubtedly be interested in the women in the bathroom, according to you. Poor woman -- so confusing!

Andrea- not anonWe don't get anons mixed up- all a...

2007-11-26T15:59:00.000-05:00

Andrea- not anon
We don't get anons mixed up- all anons are nutty anons and ashamed of what they are saying- otherwise why remain anons? TTF doesn't need or have decoys- we leave that to the CRC mini-minds.

You've got your anons mixed, DW. I didn't bring up...

2007-11-26T15:37:00.000-05:00

You've got your anons mixed, DW. I didn't bring up lesbians. It was probably a TTF decoy.

The brain vs mind issue is a stupid diversion. Try again, you're failing.

This is certainly getting complicated for anon, po...

2007-11-26T14:52:00.000-05:00

This is certainly getting complicated for anon, poor thing. It's good, anon, that you seem to recognize that epilepsy, although the affected organ is the brain, is indeed a physical disorder. That's progress.

Now, for this idea of bathroom use being based on sexual orientation. (I can't help noticing your tendency to associate "sexual desire" with topics that are quite unrelated, such as SRS and the evacuation of waste, but we'll leave that aside for now.)

You've stated that lesbians, with or without a penis, shouldn't use the ladies room, presumably since they are attracted to other women. As a man attracted to other men, should I be using the ladies room? I eagerly await your answer.

"All right -- taking re-framing up a notch. Now, n...

2007-11-26T13:49:00.000-05:00

"All right -- taking re-framing up a notch. Now, not only are they going to pretend that this bill is about perverted men hanging around the ladies room, they are going to make it a feminist issue, of all things!"

Phone home, Jim. I know they don't realize this on Liberal Syndrome Planet but the main beneficiaries of sexual morality and boundaries are and always have been women.

Anyone remember how shocked liberals were when feminists first allied with religious conservatives to fight pornography?