Comments on Tales of the Rampant Coyote: RPG Design: Learning the Scales

miras: "I tend to favour story in games over gamep...

2008-11-07T20:33:00.000-08:00

miras: "I tend to favour story in games over gameplay -- there does have to be *some* gameplay, of course, and it has to be good, but if it becomes difficult enough to get me stuck then it annoys me (basically turning into what Shamus calls DIAS)."

Couldn't agree more. I think difficulty is one of the biggest challenges games face as a medium: too many gamers seem to think that interactive art should be a virtual obstacle course, while the rest of us are exasperated by the same idea. Personally I think "challenge" is best relegated to the multiplayer realm, where competition is focused on skill and strategy as opposed to pattern-recognition and muscle memory. Single-player "obstacle course" games are just annoying and archaic IMO.

But I think this only really applies to linear games, where there's no "Plan B" for the player to level up/get gold and buy better gear, etc. In RPGs I think having to divert to "Plan B" on occasion truly reinforces the illusion of danger, provides guideposts for advancement, and gives the player more genuine satisfaction when the ultimately victory rolls around. But like you say, too many "Plan Bs" in an RPG just feels taxing. The best gauge is, as always, the player: if the player is annoyed, then your game is too difficult, no question. Legitimate challenge excites -- not exacerbates -- an interested gamer.

Re: the scaling thing, I'm kind of amazed anyone ever thought scaling was a good idea. It's a solution to a non-problem. I remember when my 10-year-old brother found out that Oblivion scaled the enemies to the player's level: he said, "Then what's the point of leveling up?" If a kid can figure this stuff out, then serious designers should too.

I actually prefer it when things are slanted towar...

2008-11-06T21:42:00.000-08:00

I actually prefer it when things are slanted towards "easy" -- combat should seem exciting but should be very unlikely to kill me off if I'm even slightly paying attention (I loathe the "game over"/"reload" screens with a firey passion). And it definitely is still fun to encounter monsters that gave you grief at lower levels and beat the tar out of them -- as long as it doesn't happen often enough to become a chore.

But then again, I tend to favour story in games over gameplay -- there does have to be *some* gameplay, of course, and it has to be good, but if it becomes difficult enough to get me stuck then it annoys me (basically turning into what Shamus calls DIAS).

I spent an undue amount of time tweaking my own pe...

2008-11-06T21:36:00.000-08:00

I spent an undue amount of time tweaking my own pen&paper rules system to avoid this problem.

Instead of basing things on the actual stat numbers, it's based on how your opponents stats compare relative to yours.

So, if you have 55 accuracy and your opponent has 110 evade, you'll hit just as much as if you had 3,142 accuracy and your opponent had 6,284 evade.

Of course the numbers would be unlikely to get over a couple hundred, but the fact is they'd work. Like if you wanted some battle of the titans or clash of the gods kind of campaign, you could do it with those insance stats.

IMHO, too much scaling means that you don't improv...

2008-11-06T21:24:00.000-08:00

IMHO, too much scaling means that you don't improve. Which is kind of pointless in an RPG, isn't it?

I'm not a pen&paper guy but I can imagine that it's very difficult to cope with that problem there but a CRPG could and should offer other possibilities. At least in a single-player campaign.
To stay in your economy example: What the hell is wrong with offering the same low-cost goods and services as before?
It would accentuate the new status the party/player reached if he doesn't have to worry any longer how expensive his stay at the inn or a reanimation at the temple would be.
The same goes for weapons and armor - only that the low-cost items wouldn't help him in the bigger fights and he needs the "bigger guns" anyway.

All of this can be solved in a game by giving the player new conditions and different goals.
Let him enter "The City of Gold" where gold is everywhere and practically worthless.
What about spells letting the player conjure up lots of money - and then taking this ability away? Let him cope with that!

The problem is: Games are often treadmills and don't surprise the player anymore.
Part of the reason is that players expect the game to act uniformly - but afterwards they'll complain that it was all the same, all the time.

I second the comment on Dragon Wars. I thought of...

2008-11-06T18:49:00.000-08:00

I second the comment on Dragon Wars. I thought of it too when I read this post.

One thing I sort of recall about D.W. was that you never advanced by leaps and bounds. The range of progress seemed less than in other games - you were always scrabbling for every small advantage you could get. Because gaining a level didn't make you 10 times stronger, it meant that you rarely completely outclassed even weak badguys, and prevented things from getting too boring.

Jay, I'd love to get your opinion on the merits of having a slower advancement rate, instead of the usual RPG arc of starting out as a tiny weakling and ending as a titan. Do you think that is a viable approach to solving some of these balance issues? Or will today's player get "bored" by the lack of fast-moving progress?

Oh, and yeah I would classify the random encounter...

2008-11-06T18:46:00.000-08:00

Oh, and yeah I would classify the random encounters in W8 along with how much time one spends in them as one MAJOR "thing to improve" on that game :)

The only RPG that I can remember that did this per...

2008-11-06T18:37:00.000-08:00

The only RPG that I can remember that did this perfectly for me was the old Dragon Wars from Interplay.

I couldn't really say why (and would probably fail miserably if I tried), but I remember feeling real progress and pride in the power of my party, without any feeling of contrivance or cheesiness whatsoever. When I was consciously careful in exploring it was manageable, when I hung around the same place I got a cakewalk eventually, and if I ran on ahead it got hard, all through to the end of the game.

Then again, maybe it's nostalgia speaking, who knows.