Comments on Tales of the Rampant Coyote: History of Western CRPGs

Rampant Coyote,I just found your blog for the firs...

2008-10-21T22:11:00.000-07:00

Rampant Coyote,

I just found your blog for the first time a few hours ago searching 'game projects ITT'. I have strayed far from the original article, and have thoroughly enjoyed my time reading. I get warm fuzzy thoughts now when I think of the phrase 'indie games'.

I just thought you should know that I enjoy your writing and thoughts on the subject.

Heh - Aaron, you might be one of the more qualifie...

2008-07-31T10:53:00.000-07:00

Heh - Aaron, you might be one of the more qualified fans to do the research and WRITE that study!

@Calli - Welcome out of lurkerdom!

@Xeno - Matt's Book: Dungeons & Desktops

He's written a series for GamaSutra on the subject that was really very cool.

While I've certainly got nothing against turn-base...

2008-07-31T09:49:00.000-07:00

While I've certainly got nothing against turn-based RPGs, I'd agree that real-time is generally better. The reasons are that turn-based usually results in an uneven pace and it breaks up gameplay into chunks, whereas real-time is more even and fluid.

Eastern RPGs favor story, too. One day, I'd like to read a depthful study on the differences between Western and Eastern story aesthetics. I took an Asian Literature (modern) course in college, and I still don't know how to define those differences. I do know that I stopped enjoying Japanese games when technology improved and their aesthetics played a bigger role.

Well, this thread got me out of anonymous lurkerdo...

2008-07-29T23:33:00.000-07:00

Well, this thread got me out of anonymous lurkerdom...I hope that's not a problem...

@code ugly: In terms of game mechanics, Disgaea hews a lot closer to FFT, though it has its own quirks. Lightweight but fun on the plot side, helped by the fact that it's not a very serious game most of the time.

As for the article...sometimes it seemed like the author was trying for self-deprecating humor and failing, other times being just plain crude (and probably thinking he was witty). Then again, with a moniker like Drunken Irishman...eh. Regardless, I ended up keeping a mental tally of the games mentioned more than actually paying attention to the sophomoric diatribe.

And more than enough has been said about that real-time superiority thing already. Blech.

@Stu: Who's Matt Barton?

2008-07-29T13:26:00.000-07:00

@Stu: Who's Matt Barton?

@PedroI have spent so little time on wasteland, I ...

2008-07-29T13:05:00.000-07:00

@Pedro
I have spent so little time on wasteland, I guess I should be ashamed of myself. I still have it on disc, maybe I'll give it another go this weekend. Speaking of interplay games, I was a little disappointed with his view of Lord of the Rings. I thought the game brought out a great atmosphere and great exploration.

@vs
Yes, A2 is the one I am referring to. I am a Tactics RPG fan with some reserve. The game play is beyond the par of most RPG's, but the adventure is lacking(with exception to The Realms of Arcania). I did not have a chance to play Fallout Tactics, and I have not played Disgea yet, though I want to. Does Disgea play more like FFT or like Fire Emblem?

"Fallout still is the apex of Western RPGs. So muc...

2008-07-29T01:31:00.000-07:00

"Fallout still is the apex of Western RPGs. So much that every game was compared to it and found lacking."

It's BS like this (that Drunken Irishman also posts on the RPGCodex forums) that annoys me. He's part of a young/teenager generation of RPers that did not grow up with the true cRPG classics, that praises Fallout, Arcanum and PS:T, average games, as the best thing since sliced bread.

The 8-hour, linear, with-choice-but-little-consequence Fallout doesn't hold a candle to Wasteland - and I wouldn't call Wasteland the Apex of Western RPGs...

Ok so I've read the article..oh gosh its so bad I ...

2008-07-28T19:37:00.000-07:00

Ok so I've read the article..

oh gosh its so bad I dont know where to start. Its freaking horrendous.

It feels like a giant regurgitation of Matt Bartons articles from his book + gamasutra.

the authors poor jibes littered in every second sentence doesnt help. ugh I think he is some 5th grade kid.

Yeah I too have been playing FFTA2 (if thats the n...

2008-07-28T18:20:00.000-07:00

Yeah I too have been playing FFTA2 (if thats the new FFT your talking about) doesn't come close to disgia (1 and 2 (dam you ps3 exclusive 3)) yet but I plan to finish the game just the same.

But this brings me to a point I wanted to make about the article: Where are the Tactical RPGs? no fallout tactics, jagged alliance or silent storm. To me they are just as part of the shaping of modern RPGs, and one of my favorite RPG sub-genres. You could also include x-com in this altho it may throw the time-line he is trying to press off.

When you think of where the first pen and paper RPGs came from (an off shoot of table top strategy war games) it seems that they are definitely part of the RPG pedigree.

turn based combat to me is one of my lynchpins. be...

2008-07-28T18:18:00.000-07:00

turn based combat to me is one of my lynchpins. be it gold box or bards tale style.

There were so many contradictions, mistakes ("Micr...

2008-07-28T18:17:00.000-07:00

There were so many contradictions, mistakes ("Micropose"?!), and blatant injections of asshatted-ness in that article, that I could only conclude that the author was not, in fact, anywhere near sober while writing. And probably hasn't been in some time.

For something presenting itself as a "history"... Yeah, I wasn't expecting anything "professional" per se, but I was expecting a bit of polish, and certainly a lot less drivel.

Yeah, ff's rts style combat is an uncomfortable fr...

2008-07-28T18:03:00.000-07:00

Yeah, ff's rts style combat is an uncomfortable frenzy of hopelessly trying to select the right units from moving into their impending doom. The side activities also seem pointless since you cant improve beyond the intense linearity of the game.

I just got into the latest ff tactics, and once you get past the silliness of the opening it turns into a very good game. Anyone who has played the original though, will want to crank up the difficulty for any kind of a challenge.

@Spiff: Lemme know when you have the engine and to...

2008-07-28T15:02:00.000-07:00

@Spiff: Lemme know when you have the engine and tools ready to test-drive, dude. :)

@vs: I noticed that. He rips on stats and math in the beginning, and whenever he talks about Wizardry games, but he also evangelizes a lot of stat-heavy and turn-based games.

@code ugly: Yeah, turn-based is alive and well in jRPGs, though the latest Final Fantasy did get away from it. Honestly, I didn't find that to be an improvement.

Yeah, it is odd that he hails Fallout yet claims t...

2008-07-28T14:10:00.000-07:00

Yeah, it is odd that he hails Fallout yet claims the game must be real time.

I pretty much only buy only RPGs anymore, and the vast majority are turn based. And yes, this is possible when you own a DS, a PSP, and only buy indy PC game title. :)

The last real time RPG I bought was Depths Peril for mac, and it is truly a great achievement and it contradicts the article in saying that indie games aren't doing much noteworthy.

One cool thing I saw this weekend (and I need to blog about this myself, but) was my 5 year old son playing a tactical turn-based strategy game (very similar to FFT) that might have been an RPG? It was a Sponge Bob Square Pants game his Granny had found him, he absolutely loves it, and he gets it! So maybe there is hope for the PC.

Well there went a huge chunk of my afternoon. I ha...

2008-07-28T13:25:00.000-07:00

Well there went a huge chunk of my afternoon. I have to agree about the writing style - wile I know it was intentionally sarcastic / annoying at times; it was still annoying to read (even though I agreed with a lot of the points) Still, a very through article. And what he said about the need for more historic texts about games is very true.

Some comments: He skips over talking about stats till the very end, and then only to show how other games have stats so thats not part of what makes an RPG. Seems like a bigger part of what a game an RPG to me, would you really call the hero's quest games an RPG if you took out the stats?

Also he drums up Troika a bunch and doesn't mention temple of elemental evil, odd.

Most disturbingly to me what his poo-pooing of turn based combat (which I love and hate to see it so rapidly losing favor,) yet still says that Fallout is the apex of RPGs.

'Fallout still is the apex of Western RPGs. So muc...

2008-07-28T12:04:00.000-07:00

'Fallout still is the apex of Western RPGs. So much that every game was compared to it and found lacking. While much of it is because of rose tinted spectacles, the truth is that we have not had a game as influential as Fallout in this post-Fallout world.'

Ok.. so he's not giving the game the full credit it deserves but.. ;)

I'm of the opinion that a team of 4-8 developers (true developers - including artists, designers, programmers, and others putting the actual game together) is actually optimal. I think they can make a better game - albeit not as flashy - than today's bloated teams of dozens.

Hey. I've got your graphics covered. :)