Comments on Crash Landing: Practical, Marginal Revolution

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2008-12-24T00:23:00.000-05:00

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2007-09-09T15:20:00.000-04:00

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Glad to read articles like this. Thanks to author!...

2007-08-28T10:10:00.000-04:00

Glad to read articles like this. Thanks to author!

Thanks for interesting article.

2007-08-18T02:42:00.000-04:00

Thanks for interesting article.

Thanks for article!

2007-08-17T16:26:00.000-04:00

Thanks for article!

I'll check it out, thanks. De Jasay argues someth...

2007-06-28T06:04:00.000-04:00

I'll check it out, thanks. De Jasay argues something similar in The State, in discussing State Capitalism as a Plantation.

I'm not very familiar with the history of Cambodia...

2007-06-28T04:26:00.000-04:00

I'm not very familiar with the history of Cambodia, so I won't comment on that. But I highly recommend Pete Boettke's work on the economic history of the USSR. He argues that what actually existed was a system in which the bureaucratic managers of state enterprises became the de facto owners, and ran those enterprises guided by the profit they could draw from them -- i.e., the USSR was a market economy with a vast amount of government intervention.

"Your point "that there will be a tendency for cen...

2007-06-28T03:43:00.000-04:00

"Your point "that there will be a tendency for centralized allocation to rely on more decentralized, market like mechanisms to allocate goods" actually backs Mises' case -- pure socialism on a large scale is impossible, and instead humans will always establish market mechanisms to handle allocation."

This may be a quibble. Pol Pot enacted pure socialism in Cambodia. Would you say it collapsed because it didn't last for ever or because 1/3 of the population had to die? It wasn't impossible during Pol Pot's reign it seems, nor with the Soviets. It seems more accurate to say it is incredibly inefficient and costly, due to limits inherent in the centralization of economic decisions.

In the article, the point is that socialists are generally not big believers in centralized economies anymore (at least the more radical ones, Catholic workers, etc), but believe that centralization to a certain degree carries an acceptable cost. The point of my post, though, was not to suggest that they are right, but that if such a program was carried out voluntarily, through mutual aid societies and the like with a high degree of centralization and non-market structure, it is fine to experiment with such models and libertarians in many instances have a moral obligation, as individuals, to support local efforts to alleviate suffering and share the burden of the weak.

Of course this will take place in the wider context of a market economy, insofar as we have a market economy. Insofar as the socialist's actions are tend toward decentralized solutions to local problems, they are nearly indistinguishable from libertarian solutions. There is common ground, especially with respect to local problems.

"But economic collapse is not such a clear cut con...

2007-06-27T10:47:00.000-04:00

"But economic collapse is not such a clear cut consequence of the difficulty of economic calculation in socialism."

For a real case that comes close to what Mises' was indicating, look at what happened in the USSR when they briefly tried to implement "real" socialism: there were vast famines, cannibalism, roving troops of marauders on the roads. Lenin quickly backed off and restored a money-based economy with interest rates.

Your point "that there will be a tendency for centralized allocation to rely on more decentralized, market like mechanisms to allocate goods" actually backs Mises' case -- pure socialism on a large scale is impossible, and instead humans will always establish market mechanisms to handle allocation.

Lionel, good point about entrepreneurship, I shoul...

2007-06-27T05:27:00.000-04:00

Lionel, good point about entrepreneurship, I shouldn't have omitted mention of such an important function of civil society. But, I also wanted to suggest that purely profit-motivated (monetary profit) entrepreneurship alone will not create the free society most people want to live in. Charity, mutual aid and collective solutions to very local problems are an integral part of a free society. There is no reason why libertarians should not focus on social justice as much as socialists do.

Thanks for the links, by the way.

But economic collapse is not such a clear cut cons...

2007-06-27T05:23:00.000-04:00

But economic collapse is not such a clear cut consequence of the difficulty of economic calculation in socialism. I think of the argument as proving that there will be a tendency for centralized allocation to rely on more decentralized, market like mechanisms to allocate goods, but not that it is absolutely impossible in the sense that it literally could never be implemented. It just couldn't be implemented without misallocation of goods, the cost of such a cumbersome system.

But Mises' point was not that socialism could not ...

2007-06-27T03:55:00.000-04:00

But Mises' point was not that socialism could not be implemented in various settings imbedded in a market economy; the impossibility he was indicating is that a worldwide socialist commonwealth, with no market exchanges and no money, which was the aim of the major socialists of that time, would have no way of rationally allocating resources. As Kirzner notes, Mises never regarded the continuing existence of the USSR as having anything to do with his thesis. He was not contending that public libraries could not successfully lend out books; he was arguing that an entire economic system that lacked money prices would result in economic collapse.

I think this is an excellent post. So what is the ...

2007-06-27T03:51:00.000-04:00

I think this is an excellent post. So what is the Libertarian version of a practical revolution (whilst understanding ideological battles have their place)? Entrepreneurship. See what value gaps exist in the world around you, work towards filling them while making a living. Making a lot of mistakes along the way of course, but growing stronger and wiser for having made them.

Y'all might want to check out these guys:
http://www.flowidealism.org
http://www2.agsm.edu.au/agsm/web.nsf/Content/AGSMMagazine-PeaceThroughLeadershipEqualityThroughEntrepreneurship

As I wrote in the addendum, I agree that central p...

2007-06-26T22:40:00.000-04:00

As I wrote in the addendum, I agree that central planning doesn't work; I'm a market anarchist, myself. The point is it's not IMPOSSIBLE, it points to an inherent difficulty in socialistic planning.

The larger point, though, is that socialists and leftists generally, have many goals on the local level that should be shared by libertarians. Libertarians have an advantage, in fact, because of their stress on voluntary, creative solutions. Theoretical duels have their place, but if libertarianism is to be a movement it needs to be something more than armchair activist. The socialist who works locally to improve the condition of those with little is much more worthy of praise than armchair activists.

Gene said:"(Mises was quite aware that most famili...

2007-06-26T21:55:00.000-04:00

Gene said:

"(Mises was quite aware that most families do not put out competitive bids for taking out the garbage, so citing that against his argument can't be right, can it?)"

I think this is a bit strong, Gene. Someone can make a statement that contradicts something he himself knows. In fact, most claims of counterexamples in political economy refer to cases that the original speaker would be familiar with.

Now I guess you're probably meaning the stronger thing, that Mises explicitly acknowledged Swiss Family Robinson could plan their economy, etc., but said that a modern industrial economy was far more complex. But then John would have to read your Mises.org article explaining this subtle point. (The one on ancient arithmetic or something like that, and yes I'm too lazy to go look it up and link it.)

"More primordially, the family is evidence that sp...

2007-06-26T12:39:00.000-04:00

"More primordially, the family is evidence that spontaneous cooperation and collective pooling of resources independent of market mechanisms is not only viable, but optimal in diverse contexts. It works. Mises' classic argument about the impossibility of economic calculation in socialism is an overstatement."

Only if you mistake what he's saying. (Mises was quite aware that most families do not put out competitive bids for taking out the garbage, so citing that against his argument can't be right, can it?)

"Socialists consider this is a sad joke, because t...

2007-06-26T10:29:00.000-04:00

"Socialists consider this is a sad joke, because they have seen socialism work in practice, never mind the theory. We have public libraries, collectively owned roads, medicine, public schools, public welfare, etc."

Has this site been hacked?

MCLA