Comments on Jeremy Rosen's Blog: Fasting

Also, it was infelicitous of me to bracket medicin...

2008-08-04T19:56:00.000-04:00

Also, it was infelicitous of me to bracket medicines with riding and music, etc. The reason for banning medicines was overwhelmingly to do with their preparation. There have been radical changes in the way medicines are made and sold nowadays

Excellent point! Certainly that would be a Kabbali...

2008-08-03T19:05:00.000-04:00

Excellent point! Certainly that would be a Kabbalist/Hasidic response. Perhaps not a Litvaks!!

I think the that "reason" they see fit to break wi...

2008-08-03T19:04:00.000-04:00

I think the that "reason" they see fit to break with that tradition would be because of the positive use of music in drawing people in, giving a more uplifting spiritual religious service. Of course, we don't violate a d'oraisa prohibition for such a reason, but perhaps they see this as a greater good, and precisely that it *is* appropriate for Shabbos to have musical enhancement.

Music on Shabbat has been part of rabbinic Shabba...

2008-08-03T19:02:00.000-04:00

Music on Shabbat has been part of rabbinic Shabbat Law, quite separately from the Destruction in the same way as the ban on riding, making/using medicines, even if the reasons given were simply 'excuses' or 'hooks to hang it on', the feeling was that such activity was simply not appropriate for the atmosphere of Shabbat and I have to say I see no basis whatsoever for changing this.

It so happens that in medieval Venice they used to play instruments in the synagogue on Kabbalat Shabbat but put them away when Shabbat came in! (Zimmels Sefardim and Ashkenazim).

If we can set aside the ban on instrumental music,...

2008-08-03T12:26:00.000-04:00

If we can set aside the ban on instrumental music, what is your feeling on the recent institution of music in some Conservative Shabbat services?

The prohibition on instruments on Shabbat is related to not repairing them if they are broken, rather than being an actual melacha, right? But since you can just not play, or have a backup instrument in case of breakage on Shabbat, I don't understand what the underlying concern really is. Especially since music is known to enhance one's spiritual or religious experience.

Good questions!The fact is that even most ultra-Or...

2008-08-03T12:23:00.000-04:00

Good questions!

The fact is that even most ultra-Orthodox Jews do not take the universal ban on music seriously anymore. Otherwise, there wouldn't be all these Hasidic pop concerts (and the reason for those who ban them is modesty, not music per se). Here is a good example of a clearly stated post-destruction custom/law falling into abeyance.

No, I do not think there is a real, serious problem with listening to serious music at home.

As for the distinction between serious and not, of course this is highly subjective but what I think is inappropriate is either getting up and dancing around the house or blaring the music at full volume. But I agree it is a fine line. I try to make a distinction because it is, after all, a period of mourning generally accepted. And in fact I do only listen to classical music during the Three Weeks, but I am not in favour of imposing that restriction particularly on kids.

And I agree my position is not necessarily a logical or consistent one. After all, I love jazz, and Coltraine is hardly pop stuff, it is serious as well, but I do avoid it too. However if I went somewhere or was in a public place with it on I would not run out!!!

I have a few follow-up questions:1) If all music ...

2008-08-03T09:48:00.000-04:00

I have a few follow-up questions:

1) If all music is forbidden, other than for a mitzvah, does that mean one should not attend a concert of non-religious music?

2) Are you saying that during the 3 weeks you would not play music at home with your family or friends, but would only listen using headphones?

3) When you say "serious" music, do you mean it has to be solemn, or would upbeat, uplifting music fall into the category you mention?

4) I have said that you listen to the Beatles, which I assume you would consider trivial. Do you not listen to them during the Three Weeks?

Technically, all music is forbidden since the dest...

2008-08-03T09:43:00.000-04:00

Technically, all music is forbidden since the destruction of the Temple. An exception is made for music in the context of Mitzvah. Even so, many Charedi Rabbis only allow one instrument at a wedding in Jerusalem.

The context of forbidding music during various periods of mourning is the association of music with parties, banquets, and public celebration. I adhere to the halkacha in this regard.

But private iPod/mp3/CD music is another matter. It is more recreational than celebratory, is usually a lone and private experience rather than a public one. I draw a difference between serious music in its varieties and trivial or sexually explicit music. (I don't listen to that anyway.) But I do listen to serious music on my mp3 player during the three weeks.

What do you say about music during the 3 weeks or ...

2008-08-02T22:34:00.000-04:00

What do you say about music during the 3 weeks or 9 days?