Comments on Founders Ministries Blog: McCain or Obama?

Dear Tom, thank you for the article, it was exactl...

2008-10-29T16:32:00.000-04:00

Dear Tom, thank you for the article, it was exactly what I needed to hear. In regards to the election, I would say that before we get wrapped up in economics, healthcare and "God's party", we should remind ourselves that there are still 3700 unborn children being murdered in this country EVERY DAY. And almost half of those children's mothers are repeat offendors! With the two candidates being so very clear on where they stand in regard to the greatest moral sin in the history of america, the decision should become soberingly clear in the heart of any Christian. Instead of honoring your political heritage or voting your wallet, would that the Spirit of GOD would convict us all to honor Him and heed the warnings of Christ with our votes. In Matthew 18:7 Our redeemer says:"Woe to world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!" Regardless of the outcome on November 4th, may the redeemed of the Lord have no part in such sin. And may our votes be found acceptable before GOD.

Rick,1. The church in acts was giving to one anoth...

2008-10-21T12:29:00.000-04:00

Rick,

1. The church in acts was giving to one another completely voluntarily and they were only doing this within the church.
2. Paul collected from all the churches, including poor churches like Philippi, whom he commended for their sacrifice. He was not giving any of it to the government. Again it was voluntary.
3. I agree that the Mosaic covenant is a good guide for these issues, but supporting priests, orphans and widows is not welfare. Furthermore, even in the New Testament, the widows had to be qualified to receive support. I do not believe Israel was a socialist state under the Mosaic covenant. They were not redistributing wealth, spreading it around, bailing out failed businesses, funding earth worship (environmentalism),etc. and taking the tithe from one person and giving to non-tithers. Even the poor paid tithes into "the system".
4. I agree that if we would love others as ourselves in the churches we could eliminate the "needs" of the people in our churches. I do not, however, believe that these are instructions to support our governments current tax ethic. If the government appealed to the people to love their neighbors by volunteering to pay extra tax or to not cash their refund checks or even take up a special voluntary tax "offering", then I wouldn't have a problem with it. That way people, like yourself, who feel obligated to support the governments spending habits, could give as much as they can to the government to distribute however they want. However, I don't believe that it is ethical, loving or christian for the government to take someone else's money by force and give it to someone who hasn't earned it. The government has no money, it all belongs to people, so they have to take from a person to spend it. Both candidates are guilty of supporting this. We need to remember that Robin Hood was a thief. Christ was not.
4. I think it is inconsistent to appeal to Christ's command to love in support of this type of theft, yet put abortion at the periphery of the election. The next president may appoint a supreme court justice(s). Far more people are murdered through abortion every day in our country, than starve to death in our country. It's something like straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. Every election is about abortion, when one candidate is pro-choice. Pretending to care about the poor, while supporting abortion is inconceivably illogical.

I hope this clarifies my position.

Godspeed.

Russell

ps. Do you volunteer to pay more taxes than you owe? Do you know anyone who does?

I would think that every congressman, including McCain and Obama, and citizen who agrees with your (and their) position would feel obliged to do so. This is another inconsistency.

Russell,Perhaps you are overlooking the history of...

2008-10-21T08:09:00.000-04:00

Russell,

Perhaps you are overlooking the history of the church. The first church shared ALL possessions, so that the poor would not be left out. Paul frequently collected money from richer congregations to share with the poorer ones. In the Mosaic covenant there were certain aspects of social welfare as well so that the poor in society would be taken care of. Finally, there is the command of our Lord who summed up the law when he said to love your neighbor as yourself. If we could learn to follow these principles, perhaps we would stop seeing the election as being all about "abortion", which it isn't.

Brother Russell,Like you, I can’t imagine why a Bi...

2008-10-17T15:11:00.000-04:00

Brother Russell,

Like you, I can’t imagine why a Bible believing Christian could vote for Obama. But also like you, I am having a hard time with McCain. The problem is we are being told these are our only two choices and they’re not.

Allow me to introduce you to Church Baldwin and the Constitution Party at www.constitutionparty.com
We may not win the election, but at least we won't have to vote against our convictions. Check out their website and platform.

Grace,
Wes

Seriously, I would like to hear an explanation fro...

2008-10-17T13:52:00.000-04:00

Seriously, I would like to hear an explanation from a Bible believing Christian as to why they are voting for Obama. I'm not a McCain supporter and I don't believe he's part of God's party. I'm an independent, but I absolutely would not vote for Obama for these reasons (some also apply to McCain):

1. I believe abortion and supporting abortion is a sin.
2. I believe to take money from someone by force and give it to someone else is theft and a sin. An income graded tax code is theft by the government and it's officers.
3. I believe that to live by faith in the government to meet our needs and take care of us instead of God is a sin. I am not a socialist.
4. There is nothing wrong with being poor. Securing employment or a certain level of living is not the governments responsibility and it is not a right.

If anyone knows of a potential candidate who believes the government should leave me alone, please let me know so I can support him.

Russell

Chalee,I assure you that I am not attempting to be...

2008-10-17T12:26:00.000-04:00

Chalee,

I assure you that I am not attempting to be “clever.” Nor am I attempting to “anticipate God's sovereign purposes.” I am seeking to walk humbly before the blessed One who saved me, called me and appointed me to His ministry of giving witness to “the gospel of God’s grace.” (Acts 20:24) Why you would seem to judge me otherwise is an issue between you and the Father.

I will ask you this, however – have you never read the prophets? “For the Lord God does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets. The lion has roared; who will not fear? The Lord God has spoken; who can but prophesy?” (Amos 3:7,8). The things about which I wrote to Joe are not hidden, Chalee. God has clearly revealed His standards in His Word as well as the consequences for disobedience. My question concerning the possible use of Obama as an instrument of God’s judgment against the sins of this nation was not an attempt to be clever (nor was it an attempt to get people to vote for him – I wont myself). It is that I sincerely believe God has been calling His people to repentance so that He may bring healing to our land and an Obama presidency may be the only way to get our attention. We’ve been experiencing a meltdown in the economy and we have been embroiled in military actions around the globe – but we just don’t get it. In the past thirty years especially, the church has turned more to courtrooms and politics than to the sovereign throne of grace. Most of what I hear from “christians” is whining over “lost freedoms” when we should be broken over sin and the conditions of the lost. Dr. Ascol wrote: “God forbid that we should trade that mandate [preaching the gospel] for any level of political influence held out by either Democrats or Republicans.” That is exactly my point. From the articles I’m reading – and the barrage of email “forwards” that I receive, it looks as if we are more concerned about winning the election for McCain than we are about preaching the gospel and upholding the glory of God.

My apologies to everyone for getting a little “preachy” but this is a very serious issue for me and I seem to get the same reaction when I express my heart – “you’re just a flaming liberal and un-American.” If God so clearly and disastrously judged Israel – how can we think American is somehow exempt? If God sovereignty used Babylon why can He not also use Obama? Is He not still God?

Sorry, Dr. Ascol, I still agree with your post.

In Grace,
Wes

chalee:Please reread Joe Blackmon's comment."Howev...

2008-10-17T12:09:00.000-04:00

chalee:

Please reread Joe Blackmon's comment.

"However, I have no idea how any Bible believeing Christian can vote for Obama."

If I am out of line and I probably am--what about Joe?

I personally found his statement inflammatory.

tom parker-i noticed you just stuck to name callin...

2008-10-17T11:34:00.000-04:00

tom parker-

i noticed you just stuck to name calling and making assumptions about another person without beginning to address any of the issues. how very typically "liberal" and "open minded" of you... *rolleyes*

if you want to share about Jesus' instructions to caesar to care for the poor (it's in the gospel of thomas, right?) or something, then come back when you are capable of substantive conversation. your ignorant opinion by itself is of very little value...

wesintex-

you said: "I believe that we are puffed with pride and God is moving to humble us – and Obama may very well be the instrument God uses to put His people on their knees. Just as God used the evil nations of Assyria and Babylon to accomplish His will, so He can use this wicked man. I do not intend to vote for Obama, but as I believe God has chosen this man to bring judgment against this sinful nation – is a vote for McCain a vote against God’s purpose? I’m not trying to cause trouble, but I am sincerely struggling with this issue."

where in scripture are we commanded to anticipate God's sovereign purposes? if God's sovereign will is hidden (as it always is unless He chooses to specifically reveal it), then we are responsible to continue to obey His revealed moral will. it is dangerous to try to be too "clever" as you seem to be attempting.

Joe:You make it sound like McCain and Palin are Go...

2008-10-16T22:06:00.000-04:00

Joe:

You make it sound like McCain and Palin are God's Party, that is the party of Bible believing people. Your statement" I have no idea how any Bible believeing Christian can vote for Obama just blows my mind. Your kind of narrow mindedness is revolting.

Dear Tom,After I looked up what "palaver" meant, I...

2008-10-16T16:26:00.000-04:00

Dear Tom,

After I looked up what "palaver" meant, I agreed with you:) I'm personally left without a candidate and will write in one.

One thought that I've had for a while is that our way of life is built on sinfulness and the American people, including most Christians, will vote on the economy because of an idolatrous heart. We say we want God's blessing on our nation. Maybe a revival? Meditate on this.

Every preacher in America preaches on Colossians 3:5 "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you:...covetousness, which is idolatry.", this Sunday.

As a result, God sends revival in every church and incarcerates covetousness from every heart.

What happens to our economy as a result and how would it effect the election?

Godspeed,

Russell
Shepherdology.com

Thanks.....Balanced and objective.Our God Reigns. ...

2008-10-16T15:09:00.000-04:00

Thanks.....
Balanced and objective.
Our God Reigns. He raises up one and brings another low.

Very well stated, my friend!

2008-10-16T13:48:00.000-04:00

Very well stated, my friend!

Brother Tom,Thank you for such an insightful post....

2008-10-16T11:00:00.000-04:00

Brother Tom,

Thank you for such an insightful post. You state so well what has been a growing burden for me over the past few years. Conservative Christians are becoming more identified with a political party or line of thought than they are the gospel of King Jesus. I believe Christians should be engaged – particularly here in American where we have been given that privilege as a “political” freedom. However, I wonder how much more good could be done if we were as vocal and vigilant in proclaiming the eternal gospel?

Brother Joe,

I know what you mean about voting for Obama – but here is my dilemma. Our beloved nation has sinned against God grievously – I think most will agree to that. Additionally many of our churches seem to be more interested in furthering their political interests than standing for the honor and glory of God. We have God’s conditions for making things right (2 Chr. 7:14) but many (perhaps even most) are more concerned about elections and “rights” than following God’s Word. I believe that we are puffed with pride and God is moving to humble us – and Obama may very well be the instrument God uses to put His people on their knees. Just as God used the evil nations of Assyria and Babylon to accomplish His will, so He can use this wicked man. I do not intend to vote for Obama, but as I believe God has chosen this man to bring judgment against this sinful nation – is a vote for McCain a vote against God’s purpose? I’m not trying to cause trouble, but I am sincerely struggling with this issue. Brother Tom pointed out that our salvation is not in a man, or in a political party but in the person of Jesus Christ.

Whoever wins this election, I see dark days for this nation and our churches: economically, politically and militarily. Humbly I see judgment coming – and it will begin in the house of God (1 Peter 4:17).

Kept In Grace,
WesInTex

It is certainly true that it really doesn't matter...

2008-10-16T09:40:00.000-04:00

It is certainly true that it really doesn't matter who gets in the White House if God is in control (and God IS in control). However, I have no idea how any Bible believeing Christian can vote for Obama. I mean, they may not want to vote FOR McCain but how they cannot vote AGAINST Obama makes my head hurt. Somebody 'splain it to me.

Thank you for saying what most pastors think, but ...

2008-10-16T08:47:00.000-04:00

Thank you for saying what most pastors think, but don't say as well.

Thank you, Tom, for a wonderful and thoughtful pos...

2008-10-15T22:32:00.000-04:00

Thank you, Tom, for a wonderful and thoughtful post.

Good post. Usually conservative Christian bloggers...

2008-10-15T19:42:00.000-04:00

Good post. Usually conservative Christian bloggers are repeating the latest bit of "Obama is the worst person in the world" gossip sourced from certain media outlets, and then arguing that it is our Christian duty to oppose him and vote for McCain.