Comments on Founders Ministries Blog: Why Mark Dever did not get elected to 1st VP

John,Just to help with your memory to your questio...

2006-06-23T10:36:00.000-04:00

John,

Just to help with your memory to your questions:

1) I can mention several names you called me
a) gorilla
b) smart aleck
c) disturbed individual

2) I must admit that there were times that I took some of my statements too far. But you must admit, you conveyed a spirit of attack as well.

3) Your threat to contact the ISP was due to the fact that I attempted to contact you to discuss this issue one on one. You called this harassment.

This point is important.

Why did you reject the very process that you were defending??

Matthew 18 clearly states to go to your brother, one on one. You rejected the very process that you defended and claimed that I called it stupid (which you know I didn't call the Matthew 18 process stupid--I called the motion enforcing all SBC churches to action stupid. Instead of discussing this issue, you stonewalled and could not get beyond the 3rd commandment issue. You would not give understanding to the interpretation of Exodus 20. (Keep in mind that the one who is supposed to initiate the discipline is the one who was offended, and instead it was the one who supposedly did the offending who sought restoration in the conversation.)
"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother." Matthew 18:15 (ESV)

You never came to me one on one via email. Your desire was to begin the discipline process at the later steps including others, in a PUBLIC FORUM.

Its a shame that you even helped increase the level of intensity that led another blogger to take action to put my personal information on this blog. And when another blogger questions his motive, he attempts to water down the impact of his actions. The person Andrew mentioned on the post is not a peer who could correct me---the person is my personal supervisor. Thus, this was with malicious intent.

The final step in Matthew 18 is to ignore the person in the congregation (completely ignore his/her postings on the blog), not go to his/her employer to get the person fired. So you have taken unbiblical steps in your process of discipline.

Your final statement refers to one of the private emails sent to you. The PROOF--My exact words were:

"I will PROBABLY not return to
the forum as a participant but will check back to make sure my name is not smeared."

No where did I say I would DEFINITELY not post again.
Because of your consistant attack and the escalation of jeapordizing my ministry, I had to respond.

I have forgiven you and Andrew for the actions on this blog. This is just to help you see things clearly.

Dear Morgan,Hi. I sincerely believe you need some ...

2006-06-22T14:12:00.000-04:00

Dear Morgan,

Hi. I sincerely believe you need some serious psychological and pastoral help. That's not meant as an insult but a hope that you get some kind of intervention in your life soon.

You intentionally come to a site to argue. And then you make this incredible statement:

"In light of the accusations you have made against me, (1) the names you have called me, (2) the suggestion for special help, (3) and the false statement of harassment, (4) could it be said that you have crossed the line of the 9th Commandment "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor"?"

(1) Name one "name" I have called you.
(2) Your behavior, especially the compulsion to attack, the harassing e-mails, etc., show you need help.
(3) You first initiated an insulting e-mail correspondance and you were eventually warned not to contact me again and if you did so you would be reported to your ISP. If you are going to deny this (as you have above), then I can post the copies of your e-mails (including the "one last jab" that you had to get in after being told not to contact me again).
(4) You've accused me of making a false accusation. I have the proof. Are you going to admit that you lied above and so added a breech of the 9th commandment to your violation of the 3rd?

You said you would not post here again. You broke that commitment. Why are you under such a compulsion to come here and argue?

John,You closed out your last statement with:"I th...

2006-06-21T21:34:00.000-04:00

John,

You closed out your last statement with:

"I think if we feel the same kind of zeal for God's honor that is held up as exemplary in the Bible (especially in the "case law" that illustrates the working out of the 10 commandments), then we would be so full of indignation that we simply couldn't discuss anything else with Morgan until he got that right."

Be it as it may, much of this has to deal with a difference in the interpretation of the 3rd Commandment. Which brings be to this question?

In light of the accusations you have made against me, the names you have called me, the suggestion for special help, and the false statement of harassment, could it be said that you have crossed the line of the 9th Commandment "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor"?

Using your process mentioned above, would it be proper to suggest that those in this discussions should "be so full of indignation that we simply couldn't discuss anything else with" John "until he got that right." Will you repent for the way you have handled this? Or will you wait for me to apologize before you can apologize?

I'll let you in on a secret... I have already forgiven you and Andrew.

Dear john wooten,Thanks for some intelligent inter...

2006-06-21T14:16:00.000-04:00

Dear john wooten,

Thanks for some intelligent interaction!

You ask: "I have a few questions about this. I'm not being facetious or patronizing, I just simply want to know your take on it. Is there a categorization for which types of sins are to be confronted through church discipline, and which types do not need to be confronted under Matthew 18 and would still enable dialogue and fellowship?"

I don't have an easy or ready answer to this. Perhaps we ought to have a church discipline thread to discuss it. I'd suggest such books as "Polity" (edited by Mark Dever), a compilation of Baptist writings on polity, including issues of discipline. Also, Gregory Wills "Democractic Religion." I would assume, at this stage, however, that a clear violation of one of the 10 commandments qualifies.

Others in the past (in "Polity", I think), have noted that when a sin is in public, the rebuke can be in public. Morgan did initiate a private e-mail correspondance with me which was just as combative and insulting as his public posts. When I challenged to repent or stop sending me e-mails, he felt he had to get in "one last jab."

I think if we feel the same kind of zeal for God's honor that is held up as exemplary in the Bible (especially in the "case law" that illustrates the working out of the 10 commandments), then we would be so full of indignation that we simply couldn't discuss anything else with Morgan until he got that right. If someone insulted my wife, and then wanted to switch topics, started discussing sports or politics or theology, I simply could not carry on that discussion until we got reconciled over the insult to my wife. Why should we feel less love for the glory of God?

By the way, I appreciate your graciousness.

Morgan,I can see you truly are passionate about se...

2006-06-21T13:25:00.000-04:00

Morgan,

I can see you truly are passionate about serving college students. The Lord is leading me to work with High-Schoolers, so you get them as soon as I'm done with them :)

My comment there was just a tangent explaining the need to understand Calvinism from a Calvinist. Otherwise, there is too much opportunity for misinformation. That's why I want discussion. Not for the sole purpose of seeing Calvinism spread, but for people to know and understand and consider it.

I was just thinking about this as I read a newspaper article about Myspace.com, and the author was so careful to correctly and specifically explain how Myspace is set up and run (it was about the legal responsibility over sex-offenders). But just last week, this same paper ran stories about the SBC annual meeting, and their explanation of Calvinism was, let's say, less than accurate.

John,Hi. I really apprecite your desire to be the ...

2006-06-21T13:14:00.000-04:00

John,

Hi. I really apprecite your desire to be the one who will break through to Morgan.

I never volunteered to be the "one." I think we all would have "broken through" to him had we taken the time to respond firmly and gracefully. (I personally believe most responses to him have been in the spirit of the law, not the spirit of grace.)I've been posting in blogs and online message boards for almost 6 years now, and one thing I've learned is that it is next to impossible to convey emotions because the "hearing" is done in the minds of the reader and gets filtered through all kinds of presuppositions.

That's one of the things I was discussing with Mr. Owen. His experiences with other Calvinists are clouding his ability to approach us in a fair and balanced way without reading into our posts the attitudes he percieves many Calvinists of having.

But we have this 800 pound gorilla in the room:

Reading your post without this particular comment makes it so much easier for me to respond with a gentle answer.

He broke the third commandment and just expects us to forget about it. We can't do that. Unless he repents and apologizes (which would, at minimum, entail deleting his blasphemy), then the only subject we have to discuss with him is, "Have you repented yet?"

I have a few questions about this. I'm not being facetious or patronizing, I just simply want to know your take on it. Is there a categorization for which types of sins are to be confronted through church discipline, and which types do not need to be confronted under Matthew 18 and would still enable dialogue and fellowship?

Does it depend on whether the sin is found in Exodus 20?

I ask, because the reaction to the post in question is largely based on a specific interpretation of the 3rc Commandment. I think I agree with you, and would add that other violations would be those billboards with a message signed by "God," as well as movies which depict Jesus(also possible 2nd Commandment), and professed Christians who openly support conspicuous sin.

That being said, I do believe that is was wrong of Mr. Owen to make such a statement, and sign the Lord's name to is. But I think his attitude toward fellow believers in this blog per his initial posts was equally sinful.

I'm not ignoring or downplaying the reality of his sin, but this is a blog, not a church body. My fellowship with Mr. Owen is based on nothing but pure technological providence from God. I don't live in his area of Tennessee, and I don't think these two sins require us to chastise him in such a public way. Especially since it is unclear as to how closely the process for discipline was adhered to per Matthew 18.

And if being a sinner and having difficulty showing grace and humility in a public forum disqualifies one from being able to participate, then you really shouldn't be talking to me, as I am often the same way.

That's what the Lord Jesus' command in Matthew 18:15-17 is about (a command that Morgan doesn't believe in following). If we just let his sin pass, just let him change the subject, then we enable his sin. We thus become participants in it.

According to Matthew 18, did you or anyone else attempt to contact him privately prior to posting all kinds of verses, proclaiming his need to repent, etc?

Then when that didn't work, did you or anyone else get together with one or two other posters at this blog and again approach him in private?

In my understanding of Matthew 18, this entire process should have been carried out prior to publicly rebuking him before anyone who could read this blog.

If you have been faithful to the Lord's teaching on this subject, just say so and I will believe you. You do not need to display the emails or anything like that, since they are private.

Wootten,This is the kind of dialogue that Glorifie...

2006-06-21T11:37:00.000-04:00

Wootten,

This is the kind of dialogue that Glorifies God. I feel like we have sat down eye to eye.

I would like correct your understanding of one of my statements. I said:

What scares me the most about those Pro-Calvinists that I have met (and its been alot), the view is you have to believe like me or you have no understand of doctrine.

I was not speaking about all of those across the US, but rather I was describing those who I have personally come in contact with.

As far as your statement:

If I wanted to know how to become a campus minister, would it be better to come to you? Or someone who is vocally against campus ministries and has never set a foot on a college campus nor come into contact with anyone who has ever worked as a campus minister? Which would give me the more accurate, honest explanation?

I would love to talk with you about the process, challenges and joys of working with college students. As you have probably already figured out (thanks, Andrew & John), I serve in TN and could set up a time to meet with you. There are some basic steps. But I would talk with others from other ministries. I have some personal friends who serve with RUF (Reformed University Fellowship) who would be a good resource of advise.

I hope that if God is calling you that direction, you run with all you are because it truly is a blessing to serve.

Also James,See Andrew and my comments (especially ...

2006-06-21T09:42:00.000-04:00

Also James,

See Andrew and my comments (especially my summary at a 12:08 AM posting) at the "Resolution Failed" thread (I think) about Morgan.

May I kindly poke your ribs about "pithy"?!
jc

Dear John Wootten,Hi. I really apprecite your desi...

2006-06-21T09:25:00.000-04:00

Dear John Wootten,

Hi. I really apprecite your desire to be the one who will break through to Morgan. But we have this 800 pound gorilla in the room: He broke the third commandment and just expects us to forget about it. We can't do that. Unless he repents and apologizes (which would, at minimum, entail deleting his blasphemy), then the only subject we have to discuss with him is, "Have you repented yet?" That's what the Lord Jesus' command in Matthew 18:15-17 is about (a command that Morgan doesn't believe in following). If we just let his sin pass, just let him change the subject, then we enable his sin. We thus become participants in it.

Andrew has reported that now Morgan is threatening to sue him. Morgan needs serious pastoral help.

Mr. Owen,Wootten,I was unaware of how sensitive yo...

2006-06-21T03:17:00.000-04:00

Mr. Owen,

Wootten,
I was unaware of how sensitive you were to a misspelling of your name. Its not uncommon to see this on your basic blog. I honestly did not mean to misspell it. You just made it sound like things should be spelled correctly-just pointing out your mistake.

It shouldn’t be such a shock that someone would want to be identified by their correct name. It’s not just any word that was being misspelled, it was my name. I’m not really sensitive about it, I’ve been called much worse. Recently, in fact. But among Christian brothers, I expect the highest degree of respect, especially with either formal or informal disagreement. It’s more blogging ettiquite than it is personal sensitivity.

As far as sources mentioned, what was mean is that fact that one should not make a blanket statement concerning the spiritual welfare of a body of believers with walking with them or talking with them. Have you done this across Tennessee? the US? In the churches I have served in I have run across individuals who disagreed with certain decisions I made and was vocal about it. Did I make a blanket statement that the church was filled with hypocrites? No.

I didn’t call anyone a hypocrite.

And this isn’t about me, or simply disagreeing with my own beliefs. If anything, I am among the ones ignorant and apathetic. I seek a deeper walk with Christ and a more fruitful study of His Word, and I want to share that with others. It isn’t easy to find others with that same attitude who are willing to do anything about it.

How many would I have to talk/walk with in order to convince you that there is a problem with ignorance and apathy among American Christians? I haven’t talked with every Christian in TN or the US. But I have walked and talked with some. Obviously. Otherwise I would have no basis for making such a statement. What I said was a blanket statement, and it should be taken as such. That being that it is true, but not without exception. No, I haven't researched all the relevant geographic and demographic data. Perhaps my section of the state is the only one that sees such widespread apathy. Perhaps my neighbor who is the director of evangelism for the TN Baptist Convention is wrong in his infinitely more professional assessment of churches across TN, based on over 40 years of pastoring and evangelizing all over Tennesse and the Southeast. I didn’t know you were so sensitive about blanket statements :)

I am also a college student, so you and I should certainly see the problems facing Christians in their transition out of high school.

I built the line of communication and when I left that church 7 years later, that person was my strongest supporter. Because I bothered to enter their world and see their perspective and walk in their shoes I built respect and honor. Unfortunately, there is the catch that if something is said long and loud enough, it is so.

I am unsure of your point. Was your intention all along to get that person to agree with you? Because that is precisely the dangerous attitude you accused me of earlier.

My example in that situation is that I would want that person to understand my position. I desire transparency and the atmosphere conducive for asking questions and challenging assumptions which would eventually lead to growth for everyone involved.

An equal part of the problem is blindly adhering to a particular worldview sans the thinking and reasoning part. And as far as that blanket statement goes, the more people I meet, the more I see it is nearly universally true, myself first and foremost. As a matter of fact, just a few weeks ago I had a lengthy discussion of this same topic with a friend from India who had just returned from teaching Muslims in South Africa.

I do desire Biblical literacy but it must be in a loving, caring way. I have witnessed ministers who leave after a year or two because of method. But, how far should we go theologically until everyone can sitdown together and feast??

Theologically? I’m not sure. Again, my point is not total doctrinal agreement (assimilation? resistance is futile!?), but mature dialogue and unity. We don’t have to decide between unity and doctrine, we have to maturely pursue both.

What scares me the most about those Pro-Calvinists that I have met (and its been alot), the view is you have to believe like me or you have no understand of doctrine.

I hate to do this, because some people can’t take my irony-loving personality, but have you walked and talked with every pro-Calvinist across Tennessee? Or the US?

Also, are these Calvinists largely college-students? Because I became a Calvinist when I entered college, and many of these young men and women are overly ambitious. My initial attitude when I became a Calvinist was to Calvinize everything I came into contact with. It’s jokingly called the “Calvinist Cage. They should be caged for the first few years so that they have time to mellow out, work out their beliefs, and see how their doctrine is to be put into practice.

We should not be so vain to believe that just one side is short sided

I agree. I’ll also add that for most non-Calvinists that I have met (I can’t get away from those blanket statements!!!) they have not read contemporary proponents of Calvinism. Even fewer have studied the primary documents of the reformers. That is the fundamental reason so many strawman complaints exist against Calvinism. I can see how that would come across as over-intellectualism or elitism, but it really seems rather practical.

If I wanted to know how to become a campus minister, would it be better to come to you? Or someone who is vocally against campus ministries and has never set a foot on a college campus nor come into contact with anyone who has ever worked as a campus minister? Which would give me the more accurate, honest explanation?

I believe that if each of us take on the responsibility of fostering biblical literacy in our own home (my two older daughters have had a passion for scripture instilled in them and they were both Bible Drill winners, State and Region) & congregation we will see amazing things take place for the kingdom of God.

I agree, more than you could possibly imagine. I am experiencing this in my own life, congregation, and friendships.

Part of bringing up anti-Calvinistic tendencies is the fact that many of the reformed leaders of the SBC are proposing, and in many cases, actually doing something about it.

I used to attend Southern Seminary, and I lived in the same building which temporarily housed the central office for the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. I heard of several pastors who agreed with the concept, but would not participate simply because it was on Southern’s campus and included people like John Piper, Wayne Grudem, Al Mohler, Bruce Ware, R.C. Sproul, Chad Brand, etc.

It certainly isn’t a solely reformed and Calvinistic program, but people reject because these people are involved. Likewise, I fear you are being overly critical of what I have said simply because I hold to Calvinism, and are not trying to understand what I'm saying. My own attitude towards you has caused me to rethink my responses.

Even this post would have come before midnight if not for the need to erase and start over after rereading your posts to gain a better understanding.

Wootten,I was unaware of how sensitive you were to...

2006-06-20T18:40:00.000-04:00

Wootten,
I was unaware of how sensitive you were to a misspelling of your name. Its not uncommon to see this on your basic blog. I honestly did not mean to misspell it. You just made it sound like things should be spelled correctly-just pointing out your mistake.

As far as sources mentioned, what was mean is that fact that one should not make a blanket statement concerning the spiritual welfare of a body of believers with walking with them or talking with them. Have you done this across Tennessee? the US? In the churches I have served in I have run across individuals who disagreed with certain decisions I made and was vocal about it. Did I make a blanket statement that the church was filled with hypocrites? No. I built the line of communication and when I left that church 7 years later, that person was my strongest supporter. Because I bothered to enter their world and see their perspective and walk in their shoes I built respect and honor. Unfortunately, there is the catch that if something is said long and loud enough, it is so.

I do desire Biblical literacy but it must be in a loving, caring way. I have witnessed ministers who leave after a year or two because of method. But, how far should we go theologically until everyone can sitdown together and feast?? What scares me the most about those Pro-Calvinists that I have met (and its been alot), the view is you have to believe like me or you have no understand of doctrine. We should not be so vain to believe that just one side is short sided

"I believe this is where your anti-Calvinistic tendencies show forth"

I believe that if each of us take on the responsibility of fostering biblical literacy in our own home (my two older daughters have had a passion for scripture instilled in them and they were both Bible Drill winners, State and Region) & congregation we will see amazing things take place for the kingdom of God.

I'm not really uptight, it would just go much fart...

2006-06-20T01:17:00.000-04:00

I'm not really uptight, it would just go much farther to show you're really interested, respectful, mature, and serious about discussing with me if you took it upon yourself to correctly spell my name.

A former youth minister once told me that the most sincere greeting you can show someone is to shake their hand and remember their name. Obviously we cannot yet shake hands, so the name part is doubly imporant.

Concerning the accidental use of the word "me," you have made several typos in your posts, but I didn't bother to point them out. Even with the misspelled words, I still understood what you were saying.

My confusion stemmed from when I said that I personally don't want to turn every member of the SBC into a Calvinist. And you responded by saying...

Does one need to believe the five points of Calvinism? Four? Three? Two? One?

That's not just childishly chiding over a misspelled word. This is clearly not understanding what I have stated.

Further, you stated..

Have you been to every church to see what those members believe?? Or are you making a broad statement lumping all members of a SBC church into the same "ignorant & apathetic" heap?? Before you jump into making such a statement you should do your homework and check out all of the sources available to you.

What sources are you talking about? I am talking about my own personal experiences, and the experiences I have been priviledged to gain from several leaders with whom I have come into contact over the last few years, including several seminary professors, preachers, and evangelists from a broad spectrum of the SBC. I was basing it on that information. But I would love to know what other resources are available.

Also, if it will help you believe it by hearing it from someone you already agree with, I know many SBC preachers who aren't Calvinists, yet have stated from the pulpit that not enough doctrine is being taught in the SBC.

Oh, and believe me, I'm sure your intention is to do what you can to bring "the end to theological ignorance and apathy which reigns supreme in our Convention today."

I really want to take this as a complement, but I fear that if you can't correctly read my statement about not wanting to Calvinize the SBC, then you may also be reading an alternate meaning into this sentence as well.

I was told by the worship leader of a large and influential Southern Baptist Church in Tennessee that theology is not important. That for one is a serious implication that many people are being conditioned to be ignorant and apathetic toward theology.

I have also taught several youth sunday school classes, and I find essential doctrines such as the Trinity have never been taught.

As Dr. Ascol has said before, this is not a Calvinist problem, this is a Christian problem. These are students who are about to move off to college, and yet they don't know what they believe, and can't defend their faith.

Again, I believe this is where your anti-Calvinistic tendencies show forth. If a non-Calvinist were pushing for teaching people to, say, correctly define Calvinism, or study the Athanasian Creed to correctly understand the Trinity, would you still oppose it?

Wow, Wootten (I think I spelled it right that time...

2006-06-19T19:13:00.000-04:00

Wow, Wootten (I think I spelled it right that time--I was actually calling you Hootten for a modified name after the elephant made famous by Dr. Seuss--Your picture looks like you are trying to hear something like the book cover of Horton hears a Who)! Your quite uptight!

You said that maybe I should read what I am writing before I send it to the blog. Does this also apply to your posting of 1:25pm:
"I canâ€™t me any more plainspoken. You just arenâ€™t willing to understand what I said and then respond to it."
I think you meant to say that "I can't BE any more plainspoken." Or perhaps you were imitating Yoda from Star Wars with "Plainspoken any more can me be"
I was excited that you were posting during the day...maybe it would make a little more sense. I was disappointed. Your ranting made absolutely no sense.

You ask the valid question, though: "Where did I claim anything about having authority over what others believe?"

Well, You previous posting states:
"What I stand for is the end to theological ignorance and apathy which reigns supreme in our Convention today." Have you been to every church to see what those members believe?? Or are you making a broad statement lumping all members of a SBC church into the same "ignorant & apathetic" heap?? Before you jump into making such a statement you should do your homework and check out all of the sources available to you.
Oh, and believe me, I'm sure your intention is to do what you can to bring "the end to theological ignorance and apathy which reigns supreme in our Convention today."

Hootten, while the desire for Theological integrit...

2006-06-19T13:25:00.000-04:00

Hootten, while the desire for Theological integrity is valiant, it gives off an attitude that "I am right and everyone else in the convention is wrong."

No it doesn’t. What gives that perception is the comments you have made here, when you read your anti-Calvinistic hostility into everything that is said. Oh, and when you asked us to leave and join the Presbyterian church, then implied that you are god-fearing, mission-minded, and gospel-driven while we are not. And also the many times you asserted your intellectual and educational superiority over everyone here.

I could go on, but suffice it to say, you are the one who is giving this impression.

This is a dangerous attitude. You have said on this blog that you don't want to turn everyone in the SBC into Calvinists. "I long for each member of the SBC to be a soul-winning Christian who understands theology and can defend his or her faith. Calvinism is neither the problem nor the solution." That's great as well, but how far is far enough?? Does one need to be a part of the Founders?

I can’t me any more plainspoken. You just aren’t willing to understand what I said and then respond to it.

To answer the question, it ends when everyone produces fruit, understands theology and can defend their faith. The theological hostility and ignorance you have shown are part of the problem. That is the dangerous attitude. You treat your theological position as the only possible one which should be allowed in the SBC. I disagree, and I do not think my own positions should be the only ones allowed either.

You are simply not understanding what I said. You seem to be having problems reading my posts. You spell my name wrong, then when I say…
I personally don't want to turn every member of the SBC into a Calvinist.

You respond with…
Does one need to believe the five points of Calvinism? Four? Three? Two? One?

???

No, theological integrity means being honest, respectful, thorough, mature, etc.

Who has given you are anyone else the authority to tell me or anyone else how to believe? Was not Isaac Backus the champion for Religious Liberty?? (except for non-christians and Roman Catholics....)

Again, you are just letting your ignorant hostility get in the way of understanding what I wrote. Where did I claim anything about having authority over what others believe?

I’m serious. Please find one post on this or any other article where I said this!

But wait…

This comment from the same person who said I should leave the SBC and join the Presbyterian church?

The same person who told me…

You need to decide if you are willing to hold to the BF&M 2000. This is supposed to be the definition of what a Southern Baptist believes. If not, then move on.

You have read quite a bit of misinformation and misunderstanding into the responses to your posts. Maybe you should check your own angry presumptions before posting. And also make sure you understand what is written before responding. I recommend blogging late at night when your mind is less anxious.

John,It is better to keep your focus on what is me...

2006-06-19T11:33:00.000-04:00

John,
It is better to keep your focus on what is mentioned on this specific forum and begin rattling off a response about a posting on another forum. It helps those who may attempt to understand what in the world you're talking about.

There you go again stooping to name calling. It clearly reveals a lack of debating ability.I guess you would rather pelt me with rocks than to forgive. Thus was the heart of those who stood ready to stone the adulterous woman. I'll pray that God will change your heart from one of stone to one of flesh.

According to your profile it says that you are a pastor. surely you do not treat your own church members with such harsh treatment.

Hootten, while the desire for Theological integrity is valiant, it gives off an attitude that "I am right and everyone else in the convention is wrong." This is a dangerous attitude. You have said on this blog that you don't want to turn everyone in the SBC into Calvinists. "I long for each member of the SBC to be a soul-winning Christian who understands theology and can defend his or her faith. Calvinism is neither the problem nor the solution." That's great as well, but how far is far enough?? Does one need to be a part of the Founders? Does one need to believe the five points of Calvinism? Four? Three? Two? One? Who has given you are anyone else the authority to tell me or anyone else how to believe? Was not Isaac Backus the champion for Religious Liberty?? (except for non-christians and Roman Catholics....)

Morgan Owen,It doesn't matter where you broke the ...

2006-06-19T09:48:00.000-04:00

Morgan Owen,

It doesn't matter where you broke the third commandment, whether on this particular thread or site or not on the internet at all. It matters that you did. You put smart-alecky words in the mouth of the Lord Jesus. Please repent. The Lord will not hold someone blameless who takes His Name vainly.

Also, apparently the blog times are set to Dr. Asc...

2006-06-19T00:59:00.000-04:00

Also, apparently the blog times are set to Dr. Ascol's time zone. I just posted two posts, and they both show post-midnight display times, yet it is still not midnight where I live.

Mr. Hooten, you really should get more sleep. Blog...

2006-06-19T00:18:00.000-04:00

Mr. Hooten, you really should get more sleep. Blogging after midnight could be hazardous to your spiritual health.
You need to decide if you are willing to hold to the BF&M 2000. This is supposed to be the definition of what a Southern Baptist believes. If not, then move on.

I wish to address this, even though it is not directed to me. Also, since it is only 11pm local time, perhaps you will attempt to read and respond to this post.

I do hold to the BF&M 2000. Since you are so familiar with my sleeping habits and work schedule, no doubt you are aware of this as well. What do you know of me that would lead you to believe otherwise?

Since you are unfamiliar with the Founder's ministry and this website and blog, allow me to explain. John L. Dagg, P. H. Mell, Richard Fuller, Basil Manly, Sr., Basil Manly, Jr., John Broadus, and James P. Boyce were among the Calvinist leaders of the SBC during its beginnings in 1845.

Those of us who support Founders Ministry desire for a Convention where theological integrity is valued. I personally don't want to turn every member of the SBC into a Calvinist. We were varied in our theology in 1845, and we still should be today. What I stand for is the end to theological ignorance and apathy which reigns supreme in our Convention today.

I long for each member of the SBC to be a soul-winning Christian who understands theology and can defend his or her faith. Calvinism is neither the problem nor the solution.

John,You have gotten your forums mixed up. That "...

2006-06-18T23:40:00.000-04:00

John,

You have gotten your forums mixed up. That "unholy" statement was made at another location. Seems you're confused.

Its a shame that you have stooped to Name Calling---calling me a "smart aleck" shows your inability to debate the issue at hand. Well, I guess sometimes its easier to attempt to demoralize someone by flippant speech than deal with the facts.

Since you brought up this issue on taking the Lord's name in vain, you seem to think that I am one who owes an apology because of my unholiness. You can even say that my words will cause the sky to fall. I believe this is exactly the feelings the religious leaders felt when Jesus spoke truth. Likewise when the apostles spoke truth. Truth has a profound impact on one's life: you can choose to ponder it or you can be rash to dismiss it. Please ponder what has been said.

Dear Morgan,Welcome back!You haven't repented of y...

2006-06-18T21:12:00.000-04:00

Dear Morgan,

Welcome back!

You haven't repented of your breach of the third commandment. You'll find in scripture that God is, in your words, "uptight" about the abuse of His holy Name. Believers with a reverance for the Sovereign God share that jealously for the glory of God.

Being a "smart aleck" isn't winsome or particularly smart. We who believe in what scripture teaches -- rather than the man-made (and man-centered) doctrines of Arminianism -- understand that God uses means to accomplish His purposes. For example, in Acts 4 the Apostles prayed that God had pre-ordained that Herod and Pontius Pilate would murder the Lord Jesus. That doesn't mean that they are not guilty for their sin. Nor does it mean that the Lord Jesus was purely a victim, taken by surprise by a treacherous disciple and two corrupt officials.

Isaac Backus was one of God's honorable vessels -- a means for His purpose. He was used by God to spread the gospel and plant many Baptist churches in the young US. He was self-conscously Edwardsian. (And not a smart-aleck.) Around the same time, another Bible believing Baptist wrote a pamphalet describing how God uses means to bring His gospel to the heathen: William Carey, the father of modern missions. Also not a smart-aleck!

Obviously, church discipline is not being practiced in many SBC churches -- or else there would not be so many inflated "membership rolls." The resolution called for integrity and discipline. Again, the only direct instruction of the Lord Jesus to the local church was to practice church discipline. And you described a resolution encouraging us to obey the Lord as "stupid."

Will you please review your placing of sarcastic words in the mouth of the Lord Jesus?

www.covenantdubois.com

Just taking a break from ministry to see the react...

2006-06-18T17:15:00.000-04:00

Just taking a break from ministry to see the reaction...boy, you reformed guys really are uptight.

John, first the motion was stupid ("stupid" is an adjective describing "motion"--I thought you learned all of this stuff in elementary school). How can one messenger propose a motion that demands action towards "church discipline"? What gall?!? Even more the assumption is that church discipline is not being done. What a broad statement.

I thought that when I was typing Bakus, oops there I go again, Backus' name I was doing it right. Forgive me. I think I did spell Jesus' name right though.
One statement you made though confused me: "Backus was key in the explosive growth of Baptists in the wake of the Great Awakening." I thought the work of God in the lives of people is key to any growth....

Mr. Hooten, you really should get more sleep. Blogging after midnight could be hazardous to your spiritual health.
You need to decide if you are willing to hold to the BF&M 2000. This is supposed to be the definition of what a Southern Baptist believes. If not, then move on.

Mr. Owen,I wanted to say a few things, but I doubt...

2006-06-18T00:48:00.000-04:00

Mr. Owen,

I wanted to say a few things, but I doubt you'll read this, since you're indubitably out doing ministry right now. But nonetheless, you said...
I'm sure there are plenty of opportunities for you and your friends to serve in the Presbyterian churches across the USA. I encourage you to pursue this and NOT SCREW UP A GOD FEARING, MISSION MINDED, GOSPEL DRIVEN Convention.

No thanks. I believe I'll stay to the God fearing, mission-minded, gospel driven convention instituted by such fine gentlemen as John L. Dagg, P. H. Mell, Richard Fuller, Basil Manly, Sr., Basil Manly, Jr., John Broadus, and James P. Boyce.

Also, if you believe that "The President is the only one that counts" then why do you care if a Calvinist holds to the first of the non-important positions?

Further you said...
I think most of the ones responding on this website are a MINORITY

Now of course, this is obvious. But you know this. You are just tinkering us with your intellectual prowess.

And finally, you said...
kind of like the confused 25% that voted in favor of the church discipline motion

I wasn't aware we voted on Church Discipline?!?!

Dear Morgan,The Lord Jesus only gave one specific ...

2006-06-17T21:53:00.000-04:00

Dear Morgan,

The Lord Jesus only gave one specific instruction about the local church: Matthew 18:15-17. It's on "church discipline", which you just described as "stupid."

As for your education, you misspelled "Backus". He was probably the real "father" of American Baptists (not Roger Williams.) (That's academic anyway since both believed in the Biblical teachings of depravity and salvation by grace, etc.) Backus was key in the explosive growth of Baptists in the wake of the Great Awakening. He believed that Jonathan Edwards' teaching accurately reflected scripture (except on the matter of baptism, of course.)

As for your "trenches of ministry": you might want to begin with removing your breach of the third commandment on another blog at this site.

volfan007---Thanks for the encouraging words! I'm...

2006-06-17T20:44:00.000-04:00

volfan007---Thanks for the encouraging words! I'm sure we are a part of the 75% that voted that stupid motion (Church Discipline) down.

Which brings me to Perry---I think most of the ones responding on this website are a MINORITY (thank the Lord) of Southern Baptists (kind of like the confused 25% that voted in favor of the church discipline motion)

And now John---I'm a much more educated man than you may wish to admit. I am quite learned in Baptist History (having taken it in Seminary 14+ years ago). And after all was said and done, I came away from that experience with a greater desire to be a, dare I say, Christian than an Edwardsian. I'm sure Jonathan Edwards made it possible for Bakus to enter the Kingdom of Heaven???

As you may have noticed that the other day was the first time I commented on this blog. This is mainly due to the fact that I think its more important that we ministers should be about MINISTRY. So, I will depart for now to return to the trenches of ministry and leave the Blogging world to those who so want to make a name for themselves.

way to go, mo! good, insightful, uplifting commen...

2006-06-17T17:42:00.000-04:00

way to go, mo! good, insightful, uplifting comments amidst a sea of debri. God bless you, bro.