Comments on Founders Ministries Blog: Why Dr. Caner thinks he is predestined never to be...

OK, so I am not as learned in this area as most on...

2006-07-28T10:14:00.000-04:00

OK, so I am not as learned in this area as most on this board. I did manage to attend Bible College for three years before not so politely being asked to leave.

So, with this being said, am I correct in the idea that Mr. Zane Hodges is Calvinist? I have read some of his works and like what he has to say, yet, the whole ABSOLUTE GRACE thing is still rather overwhelming. This may be in part that this concept rarely, if ever, exists in the here and now.

Instead of speaking with thick piousness and tryin...

2006-05-22T16:51:00.000-04:00

Instead of speaking with thick piousness and trying hard to sound well educated by books, writings and notions of man...I think I'll commend Dr. Caner for bringing the Bible with a fire that we have long lost. I love how the author of this blog wrote that the Caner's are like firemen racing to a dying fire with buckets of gasoline! HA! That is exactly what draws us to men that are not afraid to teach the simplicity of the Bible instead of acting like they have God figured out...oh, like Calvinists. BTW, why are you "Calvinists" instead of "Followers of Christ?" is it because you solely rely on the logic and conspiracy theories of man to find the hidden secrets of the bible? Are there truly secrets? shouldn't your theories be treated just like the DaVinci Code?

I pray that God will have mercy on your souls in the end when we stand before him and he says -- Why hahve you led so many astray? Was it THAT important to sound smart? Was it SO hard to just take the grace that I freely give, than to distort it with how it is possible for me to give it?

You have done the worst thing ever, you have made an idol of God with your own rules instead of what the Bible simply says.

calvinism and arminianism are young men's religion...

2006-05-19T15:27:00.000-04:00

calvinism and arminianism are young men's religions. dont settle for less than what the bible teaches by selling out to one of these systems of theology. also, i would encourage yall to be more concerned with winning souls to the lord than trying to win people to calvinism. get out of the extreme and return to the truth.

Speaking Up,I know that it has been some time, but...

2006-04-24T15:07:00.000-04:00

Speaking Up,

I know that it has been some time, but I would like to address your questions. They are good questions which have oft been asked by many, the sincere and the sarcastic alike. Concerning evangelism, I look to begin a series of quotes and references to evangelism in the Reformed tradition after this week along with a few of my own. Let me just say that the doctrine of unconditional election (among others) is foundational to evangelism and serves as a great motivation to evangelize. The Apostle Paul attests much to this.

Once the T4G Conference is over and I have a little breathing room, I hope to address some of your questions including the all-important one between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility (becuase I do not believe they are yours alone). In the meantime, if you would like to email me, please do so at gospelcentral [at] yahoo [dot] com. Thanks.

I am Caner's worst nightmare...a "doctrines of gra...

2006-04-24T11:51:00.000-04:00

I am Caner's worst nightmare...a "doctrines of grace" missionary family serving in Russia. His morning sermon, which I listened to first in error as I thought it was the "hyper calvin" sermon, was actually as bad as the misrepresentations he made that morning. Just a few excerpts from it in case you missed it..."I affectionately call my minivan my 'castration wagon'"..."We have everything in our church the world has to offer" (how right he is, sadly)...and the most shameful, when speaking about his parachuting effort he described the instructor strapped to him so he could jump with him as "...being to close for my taste. "And the he reiterated, I am assuming so all the young children listening could be sure and ask their parents later why everyone was laughing, he states..."Too 'brokeback' for my taste". Can you hear Spurgeon, Whitfield, Edwards, or any other great preacher (reformed or not)make comments like this!!! His moring sermon shows a prevailing lack of respect for God's word and for the highest calling of exposing God's word.

really? that's unbelievable...why do you think tha...

2006-04-23T17:31:00.000-04:00

really? that's unbelievable...why do you think that any presbyterian would go to LU? I mean, why would they go there, there's always Westminster up in Philly.

I've noticed several references to Caner and Liber...

2006-04-22T20:22:00.000-04:00

I've noticed several references to Caner and Liberty in the same breath as SBC. As a current DMin student at LU and SBC endorsed chaplain, I always hear SBC referred to in the 3rd person.

The funny thing is that a vast portion of the DMin students are Korean Presbyterians.

Speaking Up, I can't answer all your questions, ...

2006-04-21T23:45:00.000-04:00

Speaking Up,

I can't answer all your questions, but regarding evangelism, God determines the ends and the means. If He wills for a chosen person to be saved He certainly will decree the specific ways that person will be saved. And though this will invite laziness for many people, God needs no one to save anyone, if He has elected someone they will be saved if no one ever witnesses to them, but it seems certain that His preordained means of effecting their conversion comes through preaching. Trust me, do not try to think about this for too long.

Gene said:"Second, one fails to see how taking som...

2006-04-20T21:14:00.000-04:00

Gene said:

"Second, one fails to see how taking some time to post comments on a blog is damaging to the gospel. There are folks out there who do internet apologetics. Some are writers. Moreover, the objection as it stands would fall back on you. If the folks here are guilty of not spreading the gospel for posting and studying, then what is your excuse for posting and studying? Moreover, Baptists from the 17th to 19th century often debated and wrote lengthy doctrinal pamphlets. We have an enormous amount of documentation of these debates and letters."

I wasn't saying it's wrong to comment/post/study on a blog. The (possible) damage I see is when Christians are arguing among themselves. I was thinking it would be a poor witness for unbelievers who may come along and read the blog.

I can see I'm not as intellectual as others here and may not communicate as well as I would like to. Blogs, message boards etc.,are somewhat new to me, plus trying to communicate without body language, and not knowing each other at all can be difficult.

Gene said:

"If you define "gospel" in exegetical terms, both Arminianism and Calvinism affirm the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and the necessity of Sola Fide and personal conversion.

Ergo, when "gospel" is defined in this manner, closer to exegetical usage, the essential issue addressed by the Gospel is that man is a sinner, under the condemnation of God. The Gospel never calls upon the unregenerate to believe that they are unable to believe. Rather, it calls upon us to recognize our guilt before God, and to see Christ's sacrificial death as the sole remedy for our guilt and condemnation.

The Gospel message is about guilt, condemnation and forgiveness. It is not about "Who chose whom?", or "Where does faith come from?" Gospel-faith is trust in the person of Christ, having the confidence that He, by means of His Substitutionary death, has borne our sin and is fully able to forgive everyone who calls upon Him for salvation. Gospel-faith recognizes that Christ saves only those who trust in Him. It does not necessarily recognize the truth that this trust is God-given. One need not know or believe that God is the one behind your repentance and faith to experience repentance and faith. One need not understand the nature of justification before he experiences it. One need not believe in eternal security in order to be eternally secure; one need not believe it is impossible to fall away and fail to persevere in the faith in order not to fall away and persevere in the faith. Ergo, in this sense, both Calvinism and Arminianism can be said to encapsulate the gospel."

Thank you, Gene, for including this in your response! I will have to print out the rest of your response and study it closer, but that last part I can understand! I'm a simple man. I'm not sure I can understand all your big words, and I'm not sure I need to, but I will try. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my comments and help me to better understand Calvinism.

Steven Thomas said:

"How do you reconcile these two statements:

To me, it is arrogance to say if you don't believe what I believe (among Christians), then you're worshipping a God of one's own imagination?

and

Then he starts preaching Calvinism from the pulpit, not the gospel, which is what he should (and used to) be preaching, but Calvinism, which he now believes to be the gospel.

Is it not equally arrogant to say that Calvinism isn't the gospel, just because you don't agree with it?"

Only if I'm saying what I believe is the true-truth, and whatever you believe is wrong. I think we (as humans) are going to disagree on what scripture says to us individually. Definition of Gospel: Should we be preaching "Calvinism" instead of the "gospel" then? I'm not trying to be mean either, I'm just trying to understand. I don't consider myself Armenian, but I guess if I'm not, then I have to be Calvinist? Is that more important than being a bible believing Christian?

Timmy said,

"I don't think I can add to what has already been to said to your questions, so I thought I would just pop in to encourage you."

"I believe that Tom (and others here) want to answer your questions (as seen above) and want to help anyway we can."

Thanks so much for your encouragement Timmy, and for sharing your story. I hope to find more answers here because I have a few more questions. Such as:

Can you help me understand where Man's responsibility fits into the Calvinist belief?

Can someone tell me what a Reformed Charismatic is? Are they a Calvinist, or ?

How do you evangelize? I know I'm lacking in understanding, but, from what I think I understand, I don't see any need to evangelize if the chosen are chosen? I know it's not anything I do that brings others to Christ, but doesn't it take a willing heart, and one who loves the Lord to reach out to the lost? Or, are you saying God will make us willing? Can we ever be out of God's will?

Sorry for so many questions, once I got started asking, the questions seem to keep coming.

ShickRomans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet...

2006-04-20T19:35:00.000-04:00

Shick

Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

See above text for answers to the questions you posed.

You: " If God hated Esau because of what he did,
Me: God didn't hate Esau for what he did.

You: "what exactly did he do that God disliked?"
Me: Esau didn't do anything, because he wasn't even born yet

You: "In light of Romans 9:11, is it possible that God hated Esau because of what he did even before he did it?
Me: No, Paul says that God's choice was not because of works, (Good or Evil)

You: "If that were truly the case, God would have no reason for loving any of us for we will all sin"
Me: I don't agree with your conclusion. God makes His choice for His purpose, knowing full well that we are all sinners and yet He says that His choice is not based on that. His reason to love us is because it is His desire to do so.

I am greatful for His grace

When He "looked down the corridors of time," what ...

2006-04-18T13:45:00.000-04:00

When He "looked down the corridors of time," what did God see in me?

John Newton, author of Amazing Grace, once quoted a woman in his congregation as saying this:
Ah! sir, the Lord must have loved me before I was born, or else He would not have seen anything in me to love afterwards.

In his message "A Defense of Calvinism," Charles Spurgeon uses this quote, and then says this:

"I am sure it is true in my case; I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite certain that, if God had not chosen me, I should never have chosen Him; and I am sure He chose me before I was born, or else He never would have chosen me afterwards; and He must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why He should have looked upon me with special love. So I am forced to accept that great Biblical doctrine."

To which I can only add a hearty "amen!"

That's what gets me about Arminianism...it's all a...

2006-04-18T09:36:00.000-04:00

That's what gets me about Arminianism...it's all about what "I did" or "did not do".

I don't buy the "I'm saved because I did something smarter or better or more righteous than the other guy" argument of Arminianism.

Calvinism is not an easy pill to swallow. But how can you fight Scripture? And who says it's been left up to man anyway?

The "Potter and the clay" pretty much closes the case for me.

SDG

Larry and Fred,1. If God hated Esau because of wha...

2006-04-17T21:59:00.000-04:00

Larry and Fred,
1. If God hated Esau because of what he did, what exactly did he do that God disliked? Scripture doesn't tell us.
2. In light of Romans 9:11, is it possible that God hated Esau because of what he did even before he did it? If that were truly the case, God would have no reason for loving any of us for we will all sin (Romans 5:12).

Larry, "This is either intentional scripture twist...

2006-04-17T21:02:00.000-04:00

Larry,
"This is either intentional scripture twisting or the mark of one sorely unfamiliar with scripture. Either way it is not the mark of one qualified to be a seminary dean."

My thoughts exactly.

It bears repeating!The growing number of men(and w...

2006-04-17T13:35:00.000-04:00

It bears repeating!

The growing number of men
(and women I pray) who love
the TRUTH is so refreshing
and encouraging.

And so many of them are using various blogs, etc. to openly declare their
knowledge and exchange their findings with others!

Not in my lifetime have I found so many intelligent
comments about theology and
the so-called doctrines of
God's sovereign grace.

Persevere, my brothers!

Good job well done, Founders
Ministries!!

I watched Caner's entire 'sermon' on the web. Muc...

2006-04-17T09:29:00.000-04:00

I watched Caner's entire 'sermon' on the web. Much can be said about it and has been said, better than I could. However, the biggest issue to me was his mishandling of scripture. He says flat out that God hated Esau because of what Esau did, of course providing no scriptural support for this and despite the fact that a couple verses before what he read we're told directly that God's decision regarding Esau and Jacob was made before they were born and before either had done anything right or wrong (Romans 9:11). Caner deliberately skipped the part of the passage that would hurt his point. This is either intentional scripture twisting or the mark of one sorely unfamiliar with scripture. Either way it is not the mark of one qualified to be a seminary dean.

Caner needs to realize Yahweh is not Allah.

2006-04-17T01:30:00.000-04:00

Caner needs to realize Yahweh is not Allah.

I listened to this sermon but all I heard the Chih...

2006-04-16T18:10:00.000-04:00

I listened to this sermon but all I heard the Chihuahua say was "yip, yip, yip, yap, yap, yap, yip, yap, yapi, yip, yip, yip, yip, yip, yip, yip, yap, yadidy, yip, yap, yip, yap."

Of course this does not catch the rancor, ire, and indignation in his voice.

"The Sandy Creek Tradition"by Gene BridgesNow that...

2006-04-15T17:30:00.000-04:00

"The Sandy Creek Tradition"

by Gene Bridges

Now that would be sweet.

I found it telling that after Caner's anti-Calvini...

2006-04-15T16:03:00.000-04:00

I found it telling that after Caner's anti-Calvinist sermon rant, Falwell closed the service by praying like a Calvinist:

http://www.calvinistgadfly.com/?p=205

Cheers,
Alan Kurschner

OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST IS ALIVE AND WILL...

2006-04-15T14:29:00.000-04:00

OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST IS ALIVE AND WILL COME AGAIN FOR ALL HIS PEOPLE....

I THESSALONIANS 4:13-18

Though often lengthy, the comments by GMB (GeneMBr...

2006-04-15T11:31:00.000-04:00

Though often lengthy, the comments by GMB (GeneMBridges) are
worth the time and effort and I pray he will continue to write for the benefit of those of us seeking more and more and more truth.

As the older Scripture Searcher usually concludes:

PERSEVERE!

I write this to both the writer and readers.

Good post Tom.Dr. Caner is to Calvinism what Zane ...

2006-04-15T11:23:00.001-04:00

Good post Tom.

Dr. Caner is to Calvinism what Zane Hodges and Charles Ryrie were to Lordship Salvation. Like an adolescent, he is firing a cap gun at the Rock of Gibraltar thinking that he is really making an impact, but when the noise ceases all that remains is the residue and odor of a child’s toy.

In the words of my dear late friend, Vance Havner, "a bull dog can whip a skunk anytime; but in the end its just not worth it."

May we all remember that this is Resurrection Weekend. Let's not let Dr. Caner's rant (and that's all that it is – it cannot be taken seriously) be the rabbit trail that diverts our focus, energy and joy away from the once for all sufficient, vicarious, substitutionary, propitiatory sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Lord is risen He is risen indeed!
Steve Camp
2 Cor. 4:5-7

Dr. Tom:Thanks for posting that. I listened to Jam...

2006-04-15T11:23:00.000-04:00

Dr. Tom:

Thanks for posting that. I listened to James White's Dividing Line about this "sermon" and came away pleased with how he handled it, and the Scriptures that were brought up.

I also appreciate the spirit of what is being said here, with the strong reminders to be gentle as we seek to instruct others. Thank you all for bringing that to the forefront!

Oh, and yes -- I agree that Gene would write some excellent books. :)

SDG,
David Hewitt

Steve (Speaking Up),I don't think I can add to wha...

2006-04-15T05:40:00.000-04:00

Steve (Speaking Up),

I don't think I can add to what has already been to said to your questions, so I thought I would just pop in to encourage you.

While I was in college, I was in a similar situation as I first encountered Calvinism. Guys went around telling me, "I am not a baptist; I am a Calvinist." I was like, "Whatever, man." I blew them off and distanced myself from them and their theology because of what I saw, not because of what they believed. Soon those students left, and I was left with squaring with Scripture. It took me well over three years of wrestling, fighting, weeping, and repenting that I came to appreciate and hold fast to the doctrines of grace. It was a long journey which only God could have brought me through by his sovereign mercy.

Part of the reason why so many here are so passionate about what they believe is because our theology is biography (at least in part). I presume that many will attest to the struggle that you are going through. Let me encourage you to not get discouraged or disengaged from the pursuit of God-centered theology.

I believe that Tom (and others here) want to answer your questions (as seen above) and want to help anyway we can. More than anything, it is my hope that in your study you will be apprehended by the God of all grace with such a view that leaves you truly amazed by sovereign love. And in the meantime, may you find loving encouragement as you continue in your study.