tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55516100442196487302009-03-02T20:27:53.667ZecologicandoEcologicando<b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-60083432229557009492008-05-06T09:34:00.015+01:002008-05-06T12:43:07.931+01:00Hard to imagine 2024<span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(51, 0, 0);font-size:85%;" >Considering the passage of Time and the differing perspectives it lends to us. Contemplating the year 2024, in which this author may be around to celebrate a seventieth birthday.<br /><br /></span><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp1.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/SCAhe9go9AI/AAAAAAAAADY/AXKciv2eKKU/s1600-h/L1020349-mini.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp1.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/SCAhe9go9AI/AAAAAAAAADY/AXKciv2eKKU/s400/L1020349-mini.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5197190785776808962" border="0" /></a><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(51, 0, 0);font-size:85%;" >Viewed from this point in history, early May 2008 looking forward, to the year 2024 there seems a way yet to go; and a Way, the way things are shaping up, that will surely be one of much economic, environmental, military and social tragedy.<br /><br />Looking back over the last century, however, for one who's growing up was 1960s rural England, the first three decades of the century appear very far away, beyond a kind of mental as well as cultural veil that has been formed by the world-changing outcomes of World War II. If 2008 were 1908, we would still find ourselves part of the flourishing for some and world-dominating European Bourgeois order that is known in the UK as Edwardian, the surfeited stage of the European ascendency and the British Empire, with the US still pending as an economic power and the age of oil in its infancy.<br /><br />There were many even then, like now, who were aware of looming difficulties and contradictory conditions, not least of which were expressed in the movements for unionism, syndicalism, socialism and anarchist 'bottom-up' overturnings of the existing social order; but The Great War and Russian Revolution must have seemed hard to imagine, as it must also have been hard to imagine the likes of the Great Depression on both sides of the Atlantic and elsewhere that would lead to WWII and the cultural (as well as the technological and all the rest) changes that have followed, that bring us to the present era in which, Cold War and the panoply of US adventures notwithstanding, and with the accompanying resurgence of Asian and other world cultures, the West has yet to see anything like open war or even much by way of guerrilla activity let alone serious social unrest anywhere near its heartlands (I refer to UK-Europe, US-Canada, Australia-NZ, Japan as the West).<br /><br />Much is shaping up that can come to pass between now and May 2024, of which climate change or destabilisation at least is for sure. Methane outgassing in Canadian and Siberian tundra is not just a sign but an accelerator of this tipping-point-prone inevitability.<br /></span><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-6008343222955700949?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-80815065703997013342008-05-01T00:01:00.000+01:002008-04-18T11:05:11.296+01:00.<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp0.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/SAhyDhTYCmI/AAAAAAAAADQ/SnE5Nj1m0no/s1600-h/x.jpg"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp0.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/SAhyDhTYCmI/AAAAAAAAADQ/SnE5Nj1m0no/s400/x.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5190523975349308002" border="0" /></a><br /><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-8081506570399701334?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-39784572448632509712008-04-10T09:43:00.004+01:002008-04-10T10:09:47.894+01:00Framing strategies for thought and action linking 'economics' with 'ecologics'<span style="font-size:85%;"><a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=115&amp;topic_id=141060&amp;mesg_id=141100" class="jmessage-title">Framing </a>strategies for thought and action linking 'economics' with 'ecologics', contrasting the rightist agenda which claims that <b>"Protecting the environment harms the economy"</b><b>"A healthy economy depends upon a healthy environment"</b>.</span> with the progressive (and indeed only rational) way forward which must be to be aware and act on the basis that<br /><br /><div style="text-align: center;">·<br /><span style="font-size:78%;">There is room here for a stronger frame: An unhealthy economy is invariably also unhealthy for the environment:<br /><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">The transformation of living nature into dead commodities.</span><br /></span>·<br /><br /></div><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" ><span style="font-weight: bold;">Eg.</span></span>... <span style="font-size:78%;"><a href="http://www.radicalleft.net/blog/_archives/2008/3/30/3610847.html">http://www.radicalleft.net/blog/_archives/2008/3/30/3610847.html</a></span><br /><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" ><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br />... The central problem, it is becoming increasingly clear, is a mode of production whose main dynamic is the transformation of living nature into dead commodities, creating tremendous waste in the process.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The driver of this process is consumption - or more appropriately overconsumption - and the motivation is profit or capital accumulation: capitalism, in short.</span><br /><br />...<br /><br />This leads us to the dilemma of the South: before the full extent of the ecological destabilisation brought about by capitalism, it was expected that the South would simply follow the "stages of growth" of the North. Now it is impossible to do so without bringing about ecological Armageddon.<br /><br />...<br /><br />These steps are important, but they should be seen as but the initial steps in <span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">a broader, global reorientation of the paradigm for achieving economic well-being.</span><br /><br />While the adjustment will need to be much, much greater and faster in the North, the adjustment for the South will essentially be the same: <span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">a break with the high-growth, high-consumption model in favour of another model of achieving the common welfare.</span><br /><br />...<br /><br />Among other things, this will mean placing economic justice and equality at the centre of the new paradigm.<br /><br />The transition must be one not only from a fossil-fuel based economy but also from an overconsumption-driven economy.<br /><br />The end-goal must be adoption of <span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">a low-consumption, low-growth, high-equity development model that results in an improvement in people's welfare, a better quality of life for all, and greater democratic control of production.</span><br /></span><br />/... <span style="font-size:78%;"><a href="http://www.radicalleft.net/blog/_archives/2008/3/30/3610847.html">http://www.radicalleft.net/blog/_archives/2008/3/30/3610847.html</a></span><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-3978457244863250971?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-59984721642137613882008-04-09T09:07:00.007+01:002008-04-09T11:00:26.056+01:00Thursday MAY 1st · Union Square · MASS RALLY for IMMIGRANT & WORKER RIGHTS<span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Thursday MAY 1st</span></span><br /><div style="text-align: center;">Stop the Raids &amp; Deportations<br />Legalization Now · Justice for ALL<br /></div><div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size:130%;">MASS RALLY for IMMIGRANT &amp; WORKER RIGHTS</span><br /></div><span style="font-size:85%;"><a href="http://may1.info/">http://may1.info/</a><br /></span><div style="text-align: center;"><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.leftshift.org/may1/images/mayday07e.jpg"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer; width: 320px;" src="http://www.leftshift.org/may1/images/mayday07e.jpg" alt="" border="0" /></a><br /></div><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">We Say:<br /><br />* Black, Latin@, Asian, Indigenous, Arab, White -- In Unity there is strength.<br />* ICE raids are racist, anti-union and violate immigrant and US workers' civil rights &amp; divide families.<br />* Jobs &amp; homes, not lay-off and foreclosures. Stop demolition of public housing in New Orleans &amp; everywhere.<br />* No war in Iraq. Bring the troops home now.<br />* Political asylum for Victor Toro. No deportation for Flor Crisostomo.<br />* Money for levees in New Orleans, not the US / Mexico border wall.<br />* Repeal NAFTA, no more U.S. trade agreements that force migration &amp; cause lay-offs here.<br /></span><br /><br />················································································································<br /><ul><li>· 12 pm: Gather at Union Square, 14th Street &amp; Broadway</li><li>· 4 pm: Rally &amp; March</li></ul><br /><br />May Day 2008 is critically important. Will the optimism and hope expressed around the Presidential elections translate into an end of immigrant raids and deportations? Will it bring an end to the foreclosures of homes, the lowering of gas and food prices, or an end to lay-offs?<br /><br />Whatever the outcome in November, the May 1st Coalition for Immigrant and Workers Rights will be marching once again on May Day, International Workers Day to say no to all the attacks against workers here and around the world.<br /><br />We call on the progressive community, the anti-war movement, the women's &amp; LGBT movement, and especially the labor movement, to come out for May Day 2008. March for solidarity, because an injury to one is an injury to all!<br /><br /><a href="http://may1.info/">http://may1.info/</a><br /><br /><br />cf. <a href="http://rochester.indymedia.org/feature/display/19766/index.php">·· Chilean Activist Victor Toro Detained By Homeland Security in Rochester--Held in Auburn http://rochester.indymedia.org/feature/display/19766/index.php</a><br /><a href="http://www.spnyc.org/main/node/574">·· http://www.spnyc.org/main/node/574</a><br /><br />··<br />··<br />·· <span style="font-weight: bold;font-size:78%;" >hate comment:</span><br /><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" >...Toro is currently out on bail, but this hasn’t stopped him from taking time out from his preparations for court to appear alongside Cindy Sheehan as a speaker two weeks ago at a New York anti-war rally.<br /><br />Regardless, Toro’s case brings up a larger issue: the <span style="font-weight: bold;">large number of immigrants in America with openly anti-democratic political views</span>. Of late, the media focus on radical aliens has shifted towards <span style="font-weight: bold;">Islamists who seek to create a world dominated by their faith and ruled through sharia</span>. But the problem of <span style="font-weight: bold;">far-Left agitators and spies appearing on our shores</span>, if an older problem, is a continuing one with deep roots.<br /><br />Going back to the early 1900s, the arrival of <span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Communist aliens</span></span> was one of the main reasons for the immigration restrictions of the Progressive Era. Justly so. Consider this very brief list of foreign-born America-haters and their accomplishments in undermining faith in our society.<br /></span><ul style="font-style: italic;"><li><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Emma Goldman</span>. The German-born leftist started a "No Conscription" league to interfere with World War I draft organizing, which led to her eventual deportation. Years earlier, she had conspired with her lover Alexander Berkman in an attempt to assassinate an American industrialist.</span></li><li><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Niccolo Sacco and Bartolomeo Vanzetti</span>. These Italian-born anarchists became a cause celebre when leftists asserted that their convictions for murdering a payroll clerk and watchman, ( Parmenter and Berardelli ) were spurred by xenophobia. Ballistics tests have since proved their guilt, however.</span></li><li><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Marcus Garvey</span>. This Jamaican-born Black Nationalist and creator of the Back-to-Africa movement dressed in ridiculous fashion and stole from his followers. But, in animating anti-white hatred, he left a long-lasting and unwelcome legacy greatly exacerbating the problem of division among blacks and whites.</span></li><li><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Klaus Fuchs</span>. This physicist son of a Lutheran pastor left Germany and went to work on the Manhattan project—where he succeeded in passing key atomic secrets to the Soviets.</span></li><li><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Herbert Marcuse</span>.<span style="font-weight: bold;"> </span>This founder of the "Frankfurt School" of Marxist political theory left Nazi Germany because of his Jewish ancestry and radical politics and came to the U.S. where he worked first for the O.S.S. and then in a high position in the State Department. Leaving in the midst of the "Red Scare", Marcuse assumed faculty positions at leading universities through which he trained a generation of anti-American American academics, including Communist Party USA Vice-Presidential candidate and tenured radical Angela Davis.</span></li><li><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Stokely Carmichael</span>. Born in Trinidad, Carmichael rose to be the head of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) which had been associated with Martin Luther King, Jr.’s philosophy of non-violent civil disobedience. But he moved the organization away from King’s philosophy and allied with the Black Panthers. He also invented—and promoted—the concept of "institutional racism", i.e. racism for which there doesn’t have to be evidence, furthering Garvey’s politics of resentment.</span></li><li><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Juan Jose Gutierrez</span>. Born in Guatemala, Guterriez is both one of the present leaders of the radical socialist group ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) and the pro-illegals group Latino Movement USA. .</span></li></ul><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" ><br />Our tradition of representative government flows out of the <span style="font-weight: bold;">unique history of the American nation</span>. We are foolish to assume that <span style="font-weight: bold;">foreigners from the many parts of the globe</span> all come here with a common affection and regard for it.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.vdare.com/kahn/070808_toro.htm">http://www.vdare.com/kahn/070808_toro.htm</a><br /><br />·<br /><br /></span><table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><span style="font-size:85%;"><span class="medtext"><b>Dr. Jones</b></span> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Dr.%20Jones"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=185342"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=185342"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=185342"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=185342&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a></span> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"><span style="font-size:85%;">Mon May-08-06 02:39 PM<br /> Original message</span></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><span style="font-size:85%;"><b>Why Illegal Immigration is NOT a Civil Rights Issue --></b></span><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td width="1%"><span style="font-size:85%;"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/transparent.gif" border="0" height="1" width="48" /></span></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext"><!-- google_ad_section_start --><span style="font-size:85%;">In recent days, some here on DU have likened illegals to civil rights activists. But can this comparison really be made? Based on the evidence presented, one has no choice but to conclude that illegal immigration and civil disobedience are mutually exclusive. </span></div></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-size:78%;"><a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=364x1130201#1141764">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=364x1130201#1141764</a></span><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-5998472164213761388?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-84939210400102902922008-04-09T08:42:00.003+01:002008-04-09T11:01:26.331+01:00que han vivido bajo el terror,la mentira y la desinformacion por mas de un siglo del capitalismo salvaje en su fase imperialista.<span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://canarias.indymedia.org/newswire/display/15918/index.php">...este pais,aun con la brujula herrada y que han vivido bajo el terror,la mentira y la desinformacion por mas de un siglo del capitalismo salvaje en su fase imperialista...<br /><span style="font-size:85%;">http://canarias.indymedia.org/newswire/display/15918/index.php</span></a></span><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-8493921040010290292?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-1104819386956541842008-04-06T10:26:00.012+01:002008-04-06T18:23:10.321+01:00The Countering of U.S. Imperialism – A Light at the End of the Tunnel<a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3109404"><b>The Countering of U.S. Imperialism – A Light at the End of the Tunnel</b></a><br /><span style="font-size:78%;"><a href="http://ecologicando.blogspot.com/2008/01/replies-to-this-thread-k-and.html">· Comments to this item as at 6 Apr 08 18:15</a></span><br /><!-- google_ad_section_end --> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/obama2008b.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext"><!-- google_ad_section_start --><span style="font-style: italic;">“All the world thinks of the United States today as an empire, except the people of the United States. We shrink from the word ‘empire’… We feel that there ought to be some other word for the civilizing work we do so reluctantly in these backwards countries.” – </span><a style="font-style: italic;" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=1glfCn6cbTIC&amp;pg=RA1-PA217&amp;lpg=RA1-PA217&amp;dq=%22We+shrink+from+the+word%22+walter+lippman&amp;source=web&amp;ots=LxQjtl1uRt&amp;sig=7zduPVZrbbeKeuSv1p7KJmCt2iY&amp;hl=en" target="_blank">Walter Lippmann</a><span style="font-style: italic;">, 1927</span><br /><br /><br />I believe that the above quote by one the most astute American journalists of the 20th Century is right on target and applies even more today than it did in 1927. It sums up what is most wrong with our country: <span style="font-size:130%;">A toxic combination imperialism, arrogance, hypocrisy, and ignorance.</span><br /><br />Our imperialistic war in Iraq says it all. Even after the original excuse for the war was <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=364x1950418" target="_blank">proven to have been fabricated</a>, after we <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/us-media-ignores-estima_b_60396.html" target="_blank">killed</a> more than a million civilians, created more than <a href="http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070507/jamail" target="_blank">four million refugees</a> and utterly destroyed their country, our leaders still find more excuses to continue the war. Our national news media, while sometimes bemoaning the deaths of American soldiers, rarely says a word about the deaths of more than two hundred times as many Iraqi civilians, or <a href="http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/sep06/Iraq_Sep06_rpt.pdf" target="_blank">what the Iraqi people think</a> of our occupation of their country – as if their deaths and their opinions simply do not matter. Hannah Arendt was right when <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=B5gFxsbWXTYC&amp;pg=PT347&amp;lpg=PT347&amp;dq=hannah+arendt+%22imperialism+would+have+necessitated%22&amp;source=web&amp;ots=7DSffEc2fZ&amp;sig=FwzSuRoEWsQdDqjK70M1DRV5K_s&amp;hl=en" target="_blank">she said</a>:<br /><br /><div style="font-style: italic;" class="excerpt">Imperialism would have necessitated the invention of racism as the only possible ‘explanation’ and excuse for its deeds, even if no race-thinking had ever existed in the civilized world.</div><br />Any U.S. citizen who doesn’t understand how U.S. imperialism has operated since 1973 should read <span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Naomi Klein’s “</span><a style="font-weight: bold;" href="http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine" target="_blank">Shock Doctrine</a><span style="font-weight: bold;"> – The Rise of Disaster Capitalism”</span>.</span> It’s one of the most informative books I’ve ever read, and so easy to read for such a complex subject.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The United States has used two primary tools to advance its imperialistic ambitions: Covert activities and military support to install or maintain in power repressive regimes that are responsive to the needs of U.S. corporations, to the great detriment of the vast majority of a nation’s population, and; influence over international financial institutions (International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank) to loan money to desperately impoverished nations while imposing conditions on those nations which are highly favorable to U.S. corporations, while keeping the great majority of its inhabitants impoverished indefinitely – a process something akin to loan sharking or indentured servitude.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The game plan has been to put into practice </span><a style="font-weight: bold;" href="http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/us/friedman.htm" target="_blank">Milton Friedman’s economic theories</a><span style="font-weight: bold;">, developed at the University of Chicago. These theories, when used in several countries over more than three decades, have served primarily to increase the wealth and power of the wealthy (U.S. and multi-national corporations and the local elite) at the expense of everyone else. The use of these economic policies in association with violent and repressive dictatorships is no accident. Since these policies are so painful to the vast majority of a country’s inhabitants, such measures as kidnappings, executions, disappearances and torture are often needed to keep the country’s inhabitants in line. But often, financial pressures and threats alone are enough to do the job. Taken as a whole, Klein terms these methods “shock therapy” – a therapy that is brutal enough to make a person or a population docile enough to go along with what they’re told to do.</span><br /><br /><br /><b>Examples of U.S. imperialism</b><br /><br />I’ve discussed this process in several previous posts, using mostly examples from Klein’s book. In “<a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=2809763" target="_blank">Connection between State Sponsored Terror, Corporate Greed, and Economic Shock Therapy</a>” I describe our imperialistic activities in South America. Klein’s book begins with Chile in the early 1970s, where our <a href="http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/09/19/us.cia.chile.ap/" target="_blank">CIA conspired to overthrow</a> the democratically elected president of Chile, Salvador Allende, and installed the dictator, terrorist torturer, Augusto Pinochet in his place. I also discuss in that post our imperialist interventions in <a href="http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB118/index.htm" target="_blank">Brazil</a>, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War#The_military.27s_rise_to_power" target="_blank">Argentina</a>, <a href="http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/uruguay/tupamaros-uruguay.htm" target="_blank">Uruguay</a>, <a href="http://www.theglobalist.com/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=4923" target="_blank">Ecuador</a>, and other South American countries, and our use of <a href="http://www.geocities.com/%7Evirtualtruth/soaclose.htm" target="_blank">School of the Americas</a> and <a href="http://www.crimesofwar.org/special/condor.html" target="_blank">Operation Condor</a> to achieve our ends. Klein summarizes our imperialist interventions in South America:<br /><br /><div style="font-style: italic;" class="excerpt">The Chicago School counterrevolution quickly spread. Brazil was already under the control of a U.S. supported junta… Friedman traveled to Brazil in 1973, at the height of that regime’s brutality, and declared the economic experiment a “miracle”. In Uruguay the military had staged a coup in 1973 and the following year decided to go the Chicago route…. The effect on Uruguay’s previously egalitarian society was immediate: real wages decreased by 28% and hordes of scavengers appeared on the streets… Next to join the experiment was Argentina in 1976, when a junta seized power from Isabel Peron. That meant that Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and Brazil – the countries that had been showcases of developmentalism – were now all run by U.S. backed military governments and were living laboratories of Chicago School economics.</div><br />In <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=2657842" target="_blank">this post</a> I describe how the IMF was used to plunder Russia following the break-up of the Soviet Union. Klein describes the effect on the Russian people:<br /><br /><div class="excerpt">After only one year, shock therapy had taken a devastating toll: millions of middle-class Russians had lost their life savings when money lost its value, and abrupt cuts to subsidies meant millions of workers had not been paid in months. The average Russian consumed 40% less in 1992 than in 1991, and a third of the population fell below the poverty line. The middle class was forced to sell personal belongings from card tables on the streets.</div><br />In “<a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=2861454" target="_blank">The Ruling Financial Class</a>” I describe how the IMF did the same thing to several Asian countries whose economies were failing in the late 1990s. Klein describes the effects on the Asian people:<br /><br /><div class="excerpt">24 million people lost their jobs in this period… What disappeared in these parts of Asia was what was so remarkable about the region’s “miracle” in the first place: its large and growing middle class… 20 million Asians were thrown into poverty in this period of what Rodolfo Wash would have called “<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/25/argentina.weekend72" target="_blank">planned misery</a>”… Women and children suffered the worst of the crisis. Many rural families in the Philippines and South Korea sold their daughters to human traffickers who took them to work in the sex trade… a 20 percent increase in child prostitution.</div><br />And Klein describes how similar processes with similar results were used in Poland, South Africa, Sri Lanka, and Iraq.<br /><br /><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"> <b>THE CENTURY AND A HALF WAR AGAINST SOCIALISM IN THE UNITED STATES</b></span><br /><br />I discuss the century and a half war against socialism in the United States in detail in <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=834963" target="_blank">this post</a>. One way in which this subject is relevant to the issue of U.S. imperialism is that that, during the Cold War at least, the United States often used the fear of Communism as an excuse to overthrow the governments of other countries (as <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/a/2004/06/06/MNG7771M1T1.DTL" target="_blank">the Reagan</a> administration did] in Latin America, for example) or to go to war against them (as we did in Vietnam, for example).<br /><br />Two major problems with that excuse were that in most of the cases where we exercised our imperialism over third world countries: 1) they had no direct link with the USSR, which was the only Communist country that posed a potential military threat to us, and 2) the country was not Communist, but rather socialist. Notwithstanding those facts, the U.S. government utilized a “slippery slope” type of reasoning, where any degree of socialism in a country could represent the first step towards Communism and hence an alliance with the USSR. And then there was the “<a href="http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1965.html" target="_blank">domino theory</a>”, where any country that turned Communist or socialist could result in other countries doing the same. So, in the name of “freedom and democracy” we repeatedly intervened in the affairs of other countries to overthrow democratically elected governments or prop up ruthless dictators with our military or economic powers.<br /><br /><br /><b>Reasons for the US war against socialism</b><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Since the </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">purported</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> reasons for our century and a half war against socialism clearly make no sense, it behooves us to consider the </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">real</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> reasons for it. In order to understand those reasons it is first necessary to understand that much of the history of the United States, beginning with the industrial revolution that picked up steam after the Civil War (1861-1865), has involved a type of class warfare, whereby the wealthy have sought to increase their wealth and power by suppressing any movement that sought to bring power to the lower classes.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Policies which tend to benefit the less wealthy and powerful include such things as: protections against environmental degradation; protection for consumers against the risks of dangerous products; protection against dangerous working conditions; anti-trust laws to ensure competition; anti-discrimination laws; progressive tax laws; minimum wage laws; provision of government health care, education, and child care assistance; promotion or assurance of full employment for those able and willing to work; and labor laws that strengthen the bargaining capabilities of workers. These kinds of policies provide needed protections to the most vulnerable of our people and benefit the good majority of the remainder of our people.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The wealthy conservative elite of our society tag the “Socialism” label on all those laws and policies, listed above, that benefit less wealthy and powerful 98% of our population, and especially those that benefit the poor. They accuse anyone who advocates those policies of being “Socialists” and of engaging in “class warfare”. They do that, very simply, because those laws and policies reduce their own wealth and power.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">That is what the century and a half war against socialism in the United States has been mostly about. Those conservative elites are right about one thing. The policies that they rail against are indeed socialistic. When added to a primarily capitalistic system, such as operates in our country, they produce a mixed capitalism/socialism system which can maintain the production incentives of capitalism while at the same time guarding against the harmful excesses of capitalism which tend to drive people into poverty and reduce the quality of life of millions of our citizens.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">To the extent that successful socialist policies (such as national health care) operate in other countries, they have the potential of providing an example for Americans. If Americans see that the citizens of countries with socialist governments thrive and continue to re-elect those governments, they may consider whether or not it would be beneficial to have such policies instituted in their own country. Thus the need to intervene in those countries when feasible, to make sure that examples of successful socialist governments remain as few as possible. Naomi Klein expands on this idea:</span><br /><br /><div style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(153, 0, 0);" class="excerpt">Washington has always regarded democratic socialism as a greater threat than totalitarian Communism, which was easy to vilify and made for a handy enemy… The favored tactic for dealing with the inconvenient popularity of developmentalism and democratic socialism was to try to equate them with Stalinism, deliberately blurring the clear differences between the worldviews. (Conflating all opposition with terrorism plays a similar role today.)</div><br /><br /><b>A brief history of the war against socialism in the United States on the domestic front</b><br /><br />Our war against Socialism did not start with the Cold War. Suppression of the labor movement in the United States constitutes a major part of our war against socialism. For example, by attributing the <a href="http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAhaymarket.htm" target="_blank">Haymarket Square bombing</a> of 1886 to labor leader “terrorists” and imprisoning or executing the alleged perpetrators (with extremely little evidence of their guilt – See “<a href="http://www.jamesgreenworks.com/" target="_blank">Death in the Haymarket</a> – A Story of Chicago, the First Labor Movement and the Bombing that Divided Gilded Age America” for an excellent discussion of this), our elite national news media probably set back the cause of the labor movement by several years or decades. Eugene Debs, perennial Socialist candidate for President of the United States, was <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/debs/" target="_blank">repeatedly imprisoned</a> for speaking out about his beliefs. And <a href="http://www.kevincmurphy.com/hofstadter.html" target="_blank">Richard Hofstadter</a>, writing in 1970, concluded that the United States had experienced at least 160 instances in which state or federal troops had intervened in strikes, and at least 700 labor disputes in which deaths were recorded, with clearly most of the violence being perpetrated by state or federal authorities, rather than by the workers.<br /><br />The FDR Presidency (1933-1945) represents the first successful effort in our country to introduce socialist policies that produced major benefits for our people. Cass Sunstein, in his book, “<a href="http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?PID=29775&amp;cgi=biblio&amp;inkey=65-9780465083336-2" target="_blank">The Second Bill of Rights</a> – FDR’s Unfinished Revolution and Why We Need it More than Ever”, describes the philosophy that motivated Roosevelt to fight for his radical (at the time) programs to benefit the American people:<br /><br /><div style="font-style: italic;" class="excerpt">To Roosevelt, human distress could no longer be taken as an inevitable by-product of life, society, or “nature”; it was an artifact of social policies and choices. Much human misery is preventable. The only question is whether a government is determined to prevent it…. Foremost was the idea that poverty is preventable, that poverty is destructive, wasteful, demoralizing, and that poverty is morally unacceptable in a Christian and democratic society.</div><br />As I discuss in <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=2275383" target="_blank">this post</a>, FDR’s policies were wildly successful and resulted in the creation of a financially healthy middle class in our country for the first time in its history. Between 1947 (when accurate statistics on this issue first became available) and 1980, <a href="http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/f07ar.html" target="_blank">median family income rose</a> steadily (in constant 2005 dollars) from $22,499 to more than double that, $47,173.<br /><br />But then, starting with the rise of the conservative movement in our country, and the election of Ronald Reagan to the U.S. Presidency, FDR’s New Deal began to be progressively dismantled, with consequent stagnation of median income and <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29tax.html?_r=1&amp;oref=slogin" target="_blank">progressive widening of the income gap</a> in our country. And that’s where we are now.<br /><br /><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"> <b>A LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL</b></span><br /><br />When I posted on DU my four articles dealing with the imperialistic adventures of our nation as described by Naomi Klein in “The Shock Doctrine”, several posters commented on how terribly depressing this whole thing is. Indeed, this is a very depressing subject. But in the last chapter of her book, titled “<a href="http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/resources/part7/chapter22" target="_blank">Shock Wears off</a> – The Rise of Peoples’ Reconstruction”, Klein describes a developing trend, especially in Latin America, that appears to be very hopeful.<br /><br /><br /><b style="font-style: italic;">The stripping away of the aura of respectability surrounding Friedman’s economic movement</b><br /><br />Klein cites the pinnacle of the Neocon movement in the U.S. as being 1994, the year that Republicans took control of Congress. Almost certainly by mere coincidence, but still worth noting, is the fact that the day that the Democrats regained control of Congress <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">in 2006</span> was just nine days before the death of Milton Friedman. By that time, a <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article661055.ece" target="_blank">UN study</a> found that <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">the richest 2% of adults in the world owned more than half of the wealth in the world.</span> Klein writes of that fact:<br /><br /><div style="font-style: italic;" class="excerpt">The hoarding of so much wealth by a tiny minority of the world’s population was not a peaceful process, as we have seen, nor, often, was it a legal one… Many of the men who had been on the front lines of the international drive to liberate the markets from all restrictions were at that moment caught up in an astonishing array of scandals and criminal proceedings.</div><br />In support of that statement, Klein cites several instances to show how former victims have been striving to bring the perpetrators of crimes against them to justice: Augusto <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1214-07.htm" target="_blank">Pinochet was under house arrest</a>; in Argentina, the former junta leaders were <a href="http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/videla.html" target="_blank">stripped of immunity</a>, with some of those leaders being imprisoned; the former President of Bolivia was <a href="http://www.democracyctr.org/blog/2005/11/gonzalo-sanchez-de-lozada-served-in.html" target="_blank">wanted on murder charges</a>; in Russia, many of the <a href="http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20041101faessay83604/marshall-i-goldman/putin-and-the-oligarchs.html" target="_blank">oligarch billionaires were either in jail</a> or in exile; <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/05/AR2006070500523.html" target="_blank">Ken Lay died in prison</a>; Grover Norquist was <a href="http://nusslewatch.blogspot.com/2005/06/grover-norquist-and-nussle.html" target="_blank">accused of influence-peddling</a>; and then there were the whole series of <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/06/22/LI2005062200936.html" target="_blank">scandals involving Jack Abramoff</a>. Klein notes the significance of all this:<br /><br /><div class="excerpt"><span style="font-style: italic;">This list, by no means complete, represents a radical departure from the Neoliberal creation myth. The economic crusade managed to cling to a veneer of respectability and lawfulness as it progressed. Now that veneer was being very publicly stripped away to reveal a system of gross wealth inequalities, often opened up with the aid of grotesque criminality…</span><br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 0);">As people shed the collective fear that was first instilled with tanks and cattle prods… many are demanding more democracy and more control over markets. These demands represent the greatest threat of all to Friedman’s legacy because they challenge his most central claim: that capitalism and freedom are part of the same indivisible project.</span></div><br /><br /><b style="font-style: italic;">The wholesale rejection of U.S. imperialism in Latin America</b><br /><br />Klein describes the rejection of U.S. imperialist policies in Latin America:<br /><br /><div class="excerpt"><span style="font-style: italic;">On the international stage, the staunchest opponents of Neoliberal economics were winning election after election. The Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez, running on a platform of “21 Century Socialism”, </span><a style="font-style: italic;" href="http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2112" target="_blank">was re-elected in 2006</a><span style="font-style: italic;"> for a third term with 63% of the vote. Despite attempts by the Bush administration to paint Venezuela as a pseudo-democracy, a poll that same year recorded that 57% of Venezuelans were happy with the state of their democracy, an approval rating on the continent second only to Uruguay’s, where the left-wing coalition party Frente Amplio had been elected… In stark contrast to this enthusiasm, in countries where economic policies remain largely unchanged… polls consistently track an eroding faith in democracy, reflected in dwindling turnout for elections, deep cynicism toward politicians and a rise in religious fundamentalism…</span><br /><br />Opposition to privatization has become the defining issue of the continent, able to make governments and break them; by late 2006, it was practically creating a domino effect. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_general_election%2C_2006" target="_blank">Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva was reelected</a> as president of Brazil largely because he turned the vote into a referendum on privatization… In Nicaragua, Daniel Ortega, former head of the Sandinistas, made the country’s frequent blackouts the center of <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/06/AR2006110600506.html" target="_blank">his winning campaign</a>…<br /><br />Rafael Correa… called for the country “to overcome all the fallacies of neo-liberalism”. When he won, the new president of Ecuador <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/27/world/americas/27ecuador.html?pagewanted=print" target="_blank">declared himself</a> “no fan of Milton Friedman.” By then, the Bolivian president Evo Morales was approaching the end of his first year in office. After <a href="http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2006/05/bolivian_army_s.html" target="_blank">sending in the army to take back the gas fields</a> from multinational “plunderers,” he moved on to nationalize parts of the mining sector. In this same period in Mexico, the results of the fraud-tainted 2006 elections were being contested through the creation of an unprecedented “parallel government” of the people… Chile and Argentina are both led by politicians who define themselves against their countries’ Chicago School experiments…<br /><br />Today Latin Americans are picking up the project that was so brutally interrupted all those years ago. Many of the policies cropping up are familiar: nationalization of key sectors of the economy, land reform, major new investments in education, literacy and health care…<br /><br />Chavez has let it be known that if an extremist right wing element in Bolivia… makes good on its threats against the government of Evo Morales, <a href="http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=1860" target="_blank">Venezuelan troops will help defend Bolivia’s democracy</a>… Rafael Correa is set to take the most radical step of all… Correa’s government has announced that when the agreement for the (U.S. military) base expires in 2009, <a href="http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/ecuador/4373.html" target="_blank">it will not be renewed</a>. “Ecuador is a sovereign nation… We do not need any foreign troops in our country.”</div><br /><br /><b style="font-style: italic;">How Latin America gets away with defying U.S. power</b><br /><br />Klein provides three related reasons for how Latin America has been able to get away with defying U.S. power in recent years.<br /><br />First is the fact of massive amounts of grassroots popular backing for throwing off the yolk of U.S. imperialism and moving on with projects to benefit the whole population. When power is decentralized it is much more difficult to overthrow it. Removing a single leader from power is then not so easy or effective, as the U.S. found out when massive uprisings in Venezuela <a href="http://www.iacenter.org/Venezuela/venez_uprising.htm" target="_blank">thwarted its attempted coup against Chavez</a>.<br /><br />Secondly, Latin American countries have decided that they have had enough of loans from the IMF, with its restrictive conditions that force millions into poverty. The rejection of IMF loans in Latin America has been so complete that their percent of the <a href="http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/bwi-wto/imf/2007/03imfdecline.htm" target="_blank">total IMF lending portfolio has shrunk</a> from 80% in 2005 to 1% in 2007. And it’s not just Latin America. During the same time period the IMF’s worldwide lending portfolio shrunk from $81 billion to $11.8 billion. Klein sums up the future of the IMF:<br /><br /><div style="font-style: italic;" class="excerpt">The IMF, a pariah in so many countries where it has treated crises as profit-making opportunities, is starting to wither away. The World Bank faces an equally grim future.</div><br />And finally, there is the fact that the region has become much more integrated in its effort to throw off U.S. imperialism. Many Latin American nations stand ready to share resources with neighbor nations who lack those resources. For example, Chavez has <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0425-01.htm" target="_blank">offered heavily subsidized oil</a> to the poorer nations of the region.<br /><br />Klein also notes several other examples throughout the world where nations are turning away from U.S. favored Neoliberal economic policies. But Latin America in the prime example, and Klein explains why:<br /><br /><div style="font-style: italic; color: rgb(204, 0, 0);" class="excerpt">As inhabitants of the first shock lab, Latin Americans have had the most time to recover their bearings. Years of street protests have created new political groupings, eventually gaining the strength… to begin to change the power structures of the state…<span style="font-weight: bold;">Once the mechanics of the shock doctrine are deeply and collectively understood, whole communities become harder to take by surprise…</span> Today… there are just too many people in the world who have had direct experience with the shock doctrine: they know how it works…</div><br /><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"> <b>CONCLUDING REMARKS – TO RIGHT WING FOOLS WHO DON’T LIKE WHAT I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THIS</b></span><br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">I know what the reaction will be of right wing fools who read this post. They’ll be SHOCKED that an American citizen could “hate America” so much. They’ll hate me</span> for failing to take pride in our military might, and they’ll consider me a traitor for my happiness at the thought of our military power being attenuated by third world nations that don’t have the sense or gratitude to do what we want them to do. They’ll say that I want us to “lose” our war in Iraq, that I want to “weaken” our country, and that I don’t deserve to live in this country. Before answering charges such as these, I’d like to preface my remarks by briefly summarizing the balance sheet in Latin America, as described by James Petras in his book “Ruling and Ruled”:<br /><br /><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="excerpt">If we add to the concentration of $157 billion in the hands of an infinitesimal fraction of the Latin American elite, the $990 billion taken out by foreign banks in debt payments, and the $1 trillion taken out by way of profits…. over the past decade and a half, we have an adequate framework for understanding why Latin America continues to have stagnant economies with over two thirds of its population with inadequate living standards.<br /><br />The responsibility of the US for the growth of Latin American billionaires and mass poverty is several-fold and involves a very wide gamut of political institutions, business elites and academic and media moguls. First and foremost the US backed the military dictators and Neoliberal politicians who set up the billionaire economic models.</div><br /><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">My answer to those who would castigate me for being outraged over a situation like this is that I cannot take pride in a system that creates billionaires at the cost of throwing millions of people into poverty, misery and fear. I cannot take pride in a country that the rest of the world accurately sees as the world’s biggest bully. And I cannot take pride in bombing the hell out of a country that poses no threat to us, killing hundreds of thousands of its people, and destroying its infrastructure.</span><br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">None of these things do anything at all to improve my life. Nor do they do anything to improve the lives of the vast majority of my fellow Americans. Instead, they create anti-American hatred, thereby fueling the recruitment of anti-American terrorists, while destroying the lives of millions upon millions of people throughout the world. Only an arrogant idiot could take pride in all that.</span><br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Yes, I hate it when my government does those things. Yes, I hope that we “lose” the Iraq war, if “losing” means stopping the death and destruction and taking WW III off the table. Yes, I hope that the rest of the world counters and defeats our imperial ambitions – or rather the imperial ambitions of our wealthy elite and war profiteers who profit from US imperialism.</span><br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);font-size:130%;" >A government should be judged by how it benefits or harms its citizens and how it benefits or harms the rest of humanity. No nation has the right to destroy the lives of other peoples just to enhance the wealth and power of a wealthy elite minority.</span><span style="font-size:130%;"><br /><br /></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);font-size:130%;" >I believe that most Americans and their country will benefit enormously by having their country’s military might and imperial ambitions humbled by the rest of humanity. Then we will be able to live in peace and work with the other nations of the world to make a better life for all of us. If wanting that means “hating America”, then so be it.<br /><br />·<br />·<br /></span><span style="font-size:78%;"><a href="http://ecologicando.blogspot.com/2008/01/replies-to-this-thread-k-and.html">Comments to this item as at 6 Apr 08 18:15</a></span><br />·<br /><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);font-size:130%;" ><a style="font-style: italic;" href="http://ecologicando.blogspot.com/">ecologicando.blogspot.com</a><br />·<br /></span> </div></td></tr></tbody></table><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-110481938695654184?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-36691260984828893402008-04-06T09:18:00.002+01:002008-04-09T11:21:48.216+01:00'Regional' Nuclear War Would Cause Worldwide Destruction<div id="article"><div id="article_body"><h1 style="text-align: center;" id="articlehed"><span style="font-size:100%;">'Regional' Nuclear War Would Cause Worldwide Destruction</span></h1> <div style="font-style: italic;" class="date_time"> <span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-size:78%;"><span style="margin-right: 20px;"><span id="contributor" class="c cs">By Alexis Madrigal</span> <a href="mailto:alexis.madrigal@gmail.com"><img src="http://blog.wired.com/images/icon_email.gif" alt="Email" /></a></span><span style="margin-right: 20px;">April 07, 2008 | 4:07:27 PM</span>Categories: <a href="http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/military/index.html" style="line-height: 13px; color: rgb(0, 124, 165);">Military</a> <br /><a href="http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/04/regional-nuclea.html">http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/04/regional-nuclea.html</a><br /></span> </span></div></div></div> <div style="font-style: italic;" id="article_text"><p style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size:85%;"><a href="http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/07/nuclear1.jpg"><img style="width: 279px; height: 171px;" alt="Nuclear1" title="Nuclear1" src="http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/images/2008/04/07/nuclear1.jpg" border="0" /></a></span></p> <p><span style="font-size:85%;">Think you might escape the aftereffects of a limited nuclear war that happens on the other side of the globe from you? Think again.</span></p> <p><span style="font-size:85%;">Imagine that the long-simmering conflict between India and Pakistan broke out into a war in which each side deployed 50 nuclear weapons against the other country's megacities. Karachi, Bombay, and dozens of other South Asian cities catch fire like Hiroshima and Nagasaki did at the end of World War II. </span></p> <p><span style="font-size:85%;"> Beyond the local human tragedy of such a situation, a new study looking at the atmospheric chemistry of regional nuclear war finds that the hot smoke from burning cities would tear holes in the ozone layer of the Earth. The increased UV radiation resulting from the ozone loss could more than double DNA damage, and increase cancer rates across North America and Eurasia. </span></p> <p><span style="font-size:85%;">"Our research supports that there would be worldwide destruction," said <a href="http://lasp.colorado.edu/aerosol/mills.php">Michael Mills</a>, co-author of <a href="http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/0710058105v1">the study</a> and a research scientist at the University of Colorado at Boulder. "It demonstrates that a small-scale regional conflict is capable of triggering larger ozone losses globally than the ones that were previously predicted for a full-scale nuclear war."<br /><br />Combined with the climatic impact of a regional nuclear war -- which could reduce crop yields and <a href="http://www.2020visioncampaign.org/pages/187/Limited_nuclear_war_would_cause_mass_starvation_for_a_decade">starve hundreds of millions</a> -- Mills' modeling shows that the entire globe would feel the repercussions of a hundred nuclear detonations, a small fraction of just <a href="http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/stockpile_2007-2012.asp">the U.S. stockpile</a>. After decades of Cold War research into the impacts that a full-blown war between the Soviet Union and the United States would have had on the globe, recent work has focused on regional nuclear wars, which are seen as more likely than all-out nuclear Armageddon. Incorporating the latest atmospheric modeling, the scientists are finding that even a small nuclear conflict would <a href="http://climate.envsci.rutgers.edu/pdf/RobockNW2006JD008235.pdf">wreak havoc on the global environment</a> (.pdf) -- cooling it twice as much as it's heated over the last century -- and on the structure of the atmosphere itself.<br /></span> </p></div> <p style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-size:85%;">Mills' work, which appears online today in the <a href="http://www.pnas.org/">Proceedings of the National Academies of Science</a>, used <a href="http://waccm.acd.ucar.edu/">a model</a> from National Center for Atmospheric Research to look at the impact of throwing 5 million metric tons of black carbon, or soot, into the atmosphere. He found that when a cluster of cities are burning together, they end up creating their own weather, pumping soot 20,000 feet into the atmosphere. Once there, sunlight would heat the smoke, and drive it up 260,000 feet above the earth's surface. </span></p> <p style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-size:85%;">Along the way, the hot soot would cause a variety of atmospheric changes with a net result of huge reductions in ozone, which in the stratosphere serves as sunblock for the earth. In the middle latitudes, the researchers found the ozone layer would be reduced by 25 to 45 percent, with the polar regions losing 50 to 70 percent of their ozone coverage. This thinning is known as a "hole" in the ozone layer, and would be many times the size of the <a href="http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2002/09/55482">famed hole</a> over Antarctica. </span></p> <p style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-size:85%;">According to research cited by the paper, the increase in ultraviolet light falling to earth at the 45-degree latitude -- a little south of Portland, Oregon -- would cause damage to DNA to increase 213 percent. </span></p> <p style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-size:85%;">"It would have a dramatic effect on skin cancer and cataracts and be very damaging to crops and ecosystems," Mills said. </span></p> <p style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-size:85%;">The reduced levels of ozone would persist for five years, with substantial reductions in ozone continuing for another five years after that. </span></p> <p><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" >Even if the cause of the war were local, its impacts would be felt across the globe.<br /><br />"Pretty much everywhere [would be] affected," Mills concluded. </span><br /></p><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-3669126098482889340?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-66791768597513378242008-04-06T02:27:00.003+01:002008-04-06T02:29:11.414+01:00.<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp2.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R_gnKjn2-yI/AAAAAAAAACo/O4SX4ly0LPY/s1600-h/Lajares+Map-2.jpg"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp2.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R_gnKjn2-yI/AAAAAAAAACo/O4SX4ly0LPY/s400/Lajares+Map-2.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5185938033231723298" border="0" /></a><br /><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-6679176859751337824?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-12195690307470397212008-04-06T01:01:00.005+01:002008-04-07T11:21:34.406+01:00<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp2.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R_goGjn2-zI/AAAAAAAAACw/tCnpjTzk4l0/s1600-h/A%C3%A7ores+Tormenta-1.jpg"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp2.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R_goGjn2-zI/AAAAAAAAACw/tCnpjTzk4l0/s400/A%C3%A7ores+Tormenta-1.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5185939064023874354" border="0" /></a><br /><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp1.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R_kNvDn2-0I/AAAAAAAAAC4/bm_sxnxVh8k/s1600-h/x.jpg"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp1.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R_kNvDn2-0I/AAAAAAAAAC4/bm_sxnxVh8k/s400/x.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5186191547971337026" border="0" /></a><br /><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp1.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R_nKMDn2-1I/AAAAAAAAADA/FWC2xC4TLo8/s1600-h/x.jpg"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp1.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R_nKMDn2-1I/AAAAAAAAADA/FWC2xC4TLo8/s400/x.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5186398754373565266" border="0" /></a><br /><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp3.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R_n1ejn2-2I/AAAAAAAAADI/fNA4q7_TTbE/s1600-h/x.jpg"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp3.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R_n1ejn2-2I/AAAAAAAAADI/fNA4q7_TTbE/s400/x.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5186446351201139554" border="0" /></a><br /><br /><div style="text-align: center;"><br />·<br /></div><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-1219569030747039721?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-66394902729117684872008-02-29T00:00:00.000Z2008-02-17T11:45:18.612Z·<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp0.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R7f9b57sh7I/AAAAAAAAACU/gN94UX-qT-E/s1600-h/Ibiza-porche.jpg"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp0.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R7f9b57sh7I/AAAAAAAAACU/gN94UX-qT-E/s320/Ibiza-porche.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5167877753280432050" border="0" /></a><br /><div style="text-align: center;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><br /></div><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-6639490272911768487?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-86287233916132547612008-02-17T17:24:00.004Z2008-02-17T17:33:08.343Z<span style="font-size:85%;"><br /></span><table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><span class="medtext" style="font-size:85%;"><b>sendero</b></span><span style="font-size:85%;"> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/sendero"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=113099"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=113099"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=113099"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=113099&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a></span> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"><span style="font-size:85%;">Sat Feb-16-08 04:59 PM<br />Original message</span></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><span style="font-size:85%;"><b>For those struggling to understand the subprime..</b></span><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td width="1%"><span style="font-size:85%;"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/transparent.gif" border="0" height="1" width="48" /></span></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext"><!-- google_ad_section_start --><span style="font-size:85%;">... crisis, this little cartoon does an excellent job of explaining it.<br />Warning, there is some foul language here <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/happy.gif" alt=":)" title=":)" /><br /><br /><a href="http://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?docid=ddp4zq7n_0cdjsr4fn&amp;skipauth=true" target="_blank">http://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?docid=ddp4zq7n_0cdjs...</a></span> <!-- google_ad_section_end --></div> <span style="font-size:85%;"><br /></span><div class="sigline"><span style="font-size:85%;"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /></span> </div></td></tr></tbody></table><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x2875862#2876416"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp1.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R7hux57sh8I/AAAAAAAAACc/KmOTRKZVlJg/s400/fuck+you.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5168002376051492802" border="0" /></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-8628723391613254761?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-65399222807785153632008-02-17T11:37:00.004Z2008-02-17T11:43:54.049ZRoom 641A- you need to know about this...<br /><table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><span class="medtext"><b>underpants</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/underpants"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=106047"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=106047"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=106047"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=106047&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Fri Feb-15-08 02:49 PM<br />Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=385x93692#93692">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>57. Room 641A- you need to know about this</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/usmap3.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/underpants/101" target="_blank">http://journals.democraticunderground.com/underpants/10...</a><br /><br /><br /><br />In 2003, Room 641A of a large telecommunications building in downtown San Francisco was filled with powerful data-mining equipment for a "special job" by the National Security Agency, according to a former AT&amp;T technician. It was fed by fiber-optic cables that siphoned copies of e-mails and other online traffic from one of the largest Internet hubs in the United States, the former employee says in court filings.<br /><br />Neither AT&amp;T nor the federal government has admitted even the existence of a secret room, and the Justice Department is arguing that the cases should be dismissed because their subject matter is a state secret. The communications company, meanwhile, says it is prevented from properly defending itself because of national security reasons and dismisses the employee who briefly saw the room and worked on supporting equipment as a "line technician who . . . never had access to the 'secret room' he purports to describe." <--- that is as scarey an excuse as it is laughable The allegations by Mark Klein, who worked for AT&amp;T's WorldNet Service, underscore the government's dependence on major telecommunications providers to physically tap optic fibers that carry electronic signals around the globe. Some of the evidence also suggests that the NSA efforts were not limited to overseas e-mail communications and included the collection of purely domestic traffic. "I conclude that AT&amp;T has constructed an extensive -- and expensive -- collection of infrastructure that collectively has all the capability necessary to conduct large-scale covert gathering of -based communications information, not only for communications to overseas locations, but for purely domestic communications as well," said Marcus, a veteran computer network executive who worked at GTE, Genuity and other companies before joining the FCC. James X. Dempsey, policy director at the Center for Democracy and Technology, said the evidence gleaned from the AT&amp;T case appears to confirm that "there is a massive surveillance capability built into the network" by the federal government. But, Dempsey added, "the mere fact that the capability has been built and utilized still does not answer the fundamental question -- has it been exercised under constitutional parameters? That, in a way, is what these cases are trying to get to." </div> <div class="sigline"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /><br /></div></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><br /></td><td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"><br /></td></tr></tbody></table><table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="93981"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Ghost Dog</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Ghost%20Dog"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=188211"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=188211"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=188211"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=188211&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Fri Feb-15-08 11:08 PM<br />Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=385x93692#93803">Reply #57</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>113. In this context, check out Miami-based Terremark Inc:</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Ghost%20Dog"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 11:33 AM" title="Updated at 11:33 AM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/188211.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext"><a href="http://www.terremark.com/about/video-podcast.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.terremark.com/about/video-podcast.aspx</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.terremark.com/industry-solutions/government.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.terremark.com/industry-solutions/government....</a><br /><br />"Terremark's Managed Routing Service (MRS) leverages the massive global network connectivity provided by the world's largest telecommunications companies located within our carrier-neutral facility. With direct access to the backbones of the world's leading carriers, we connect you directly to the heart of the Internet, consistently delivering the quality of service required for Streaming Multimedia, Voice over IP and other demanding applications. Our ultra secure and reliable facilities are complete with redundant systems and infrastructure. Our highly trained Network Management staff can proactively monitor your service, 24x7x365.<br /><br />In addition, our high-performance Network Analysis Modules (NAMs) offer proactive monitoring and quick troubleshooting that provides our engineers with visibility into all layers of the network. This enables us to analyze traffic flows for applications, hosts, conversations and network-based services such as Quality of Service (QoS) and Voice over IP (VoIP)."</div> <div class="sigline"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/valentine.gif" alt="Valentine" title="Valentine" border="0" /> </div></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=385x93692#93803">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=385x93692#93803</a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-6539922280778515363?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-958978741634731272008-02-07T09:26:00.000Z2008-02-17T08:10:33.516ZThe Plosser Dip: potential for core inflation to remain elevated; signs the Fed's credibility is weakening; deeper rate cuts.<table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><span class="medtext" style="font-size:85%;"><b>UpInArms</b></span><span style="font-size:85%;"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/UpInArms"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=102294"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=102294"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=102294"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=102294&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a></span> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"><span style="font-size:85%;">Wed Feb-06-08 09:22 PM<br />Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=102x3170603#3170603">Original message</a></span></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><span style="font-size:85%;"><b>107. Dow ends day at psychologically important number 12,200 even</b></span><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td width="1%"><span style="font-size:85%;"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/upsidedownflag.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></span></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext"> <span style="font-size:85%;"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/anim_whacko.gif" alt=":crazy:" title=":crazy:" /><br /><br /></span><span style=";font-size:85%;color:red;" ><b>Dow 12,200.10 65.03 (0.53%)<br />Nasdaq 2,278.75 30.82 (1.33%)<br />S&amp;P 500 1,326.45 10.19 (0.76%)<br />10-Yr Bond 3.614% 0.027 </b></span><span style="font-size:85%;"><br /><br />NYSE Volume 3,799,418,500<br />Nasdaq Volume 2,357,679,250<br /><br />how handy!</span></div></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-size:85%;"><br /></span><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 0);font-size:85%;" >Wed 6 Feb 2008 DU-SMW (briefing.com):</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><br /><br /><i style="color: rgb(102, 102, 0);">With the major indices closing near their worst levels of the day, then, Wednesday's session can indeed be labeled a disappointment by market bulls. Most media sources will attribute comments from Philadelphia Fed President Plosser as the catalyst for the downturn. The fact of the matter is that the market was already fading from its highs (the Dow +125; the Nasdaq +29; and the S&amp;P +15) when comments from Mr. Plosser hit the wires around 13:30 ET.<br /><br />In particular, Mr. Plosser expressed concerns about the <b>potential for core inflation to remain elevated</b> and conceded that there may be <b>early signs the Fed's credibility is weakening</b>. Soon after, though, he also noted that one can "never say never" about <b>deeper rate cuts</b>. In other words, it was a typical "on the one hand, on the other hand" type of delivery that usually characterizes Fed speeches.<br /><br />The market, after Tuesday's sell-off, focused on the negative elements of his remarks, namely the inflation concerns, and continued sliding in the early afternoon. There was a brief upturn following <b>the Plosser dip</b>, which goes to show the market wasn't as rattled by the remarks as some contended, yet that rebound try also ran out of steam as <span style="font-weight: bold;">growth concerns</span> continued to prevail. Once again, the losses were fairly broad-based. The health care sector (+0.03%) eked out a slight gain and was the only sector to close the session with a gain. Strikingly, the utilities sector (-0.15%) and the consumer staples sector (-0.27%) exhibited relative strength, which fits with their defensive appeal in times of uncertainty and slower growth. The energy sector (-1.58%) suffered the biggest loss on Wednesday as a bearish inventory report sparked a 1.5% drop in crude futures to $87.09. Earlier in the day, the Dept. of Energy reported crude stockpiles rose 7.05 million barrels versus an expected build of 2.6 million barrels. The larger than expected build played into concerns about an economic slowdown. Many of the transportation stocks caught a bid, though, with the drop in oil prices and outperformed the market. Separately, the financial sector, which fell 1.06%, underperformed again with big losses in the exchange space taking a toll. Shares of CME Group (CME 485.25, -103.55) plummeted 17% in the wake of a report that the Dept. of Justice issued a comment letter suggesting the separation of clearing operations from the futures exchanges. Technology, down 1.4%, was another influential weak spot that weighed on the broader market. True to recent form, the big-cap technology issues were out of favor as evidenced by the 1.8% decline in the Nasdaq 100 that preceded Cisco's (CSCO 23.08, -0.18) earnings report after the close.</i><br /><br /></span><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 0);font-size:85%;" >/... </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><a style="color: rgb(102, 102, 0);" href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=102x3170603#3171482">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=102x3170603#3171482</a></span><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-95897874163473127?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-48120781382404100362008-02-07T09:14:00.000Z2008-02-07T11:40:27.458Z"The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -- Thomas Jefferson<table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><span class="medtext" style="font-size:85%;"><b>greyhound1966</b></span><span style="font-size:85%;"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/greyhound1966"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=170762"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=170762"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=170762"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=170762&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a></span> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"><span style="font-size:85%;">Wed Feb-06-08 08:15 AM<br />Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x2821847#2822111">Reply #28</a></span></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><span style="font-size:85%;"><b>72. "It is good that Americans don't understand their economic or banking systems,</b></span><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><span style="font-size:85%;"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/170762.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></span></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext"><span style="font-weight: bold;font-size:85%;" >if they did, we would have revolution tomorrow" - Henry Ford</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><br /><br />100% of every dollar the IRS collects is paid to a private bank as interest on money they never had to loan.<br /><br />We are about to understand the true cost of our ignorance.</span></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"> <span style="font-size:85%;"><br /></span></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"><span style="font-size:85%;"><br /></span></td> </tr> </tbody></table><table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><span style="font-size:85%;"><a name="2824729"></a></span><span class="medtext" style="font-size:85%;"><b>redqueen</b></span><span style="font-size:85%;"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/redqueen"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=133284"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=133284"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=133284"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=133284&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a></span> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"><span style="font-size:85%;">Wed Feb-06-08 03:16 PM<br />Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x2821847#2824070">Reply #72</a></span></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><span style="font-size:85%;"><b>107. "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies...</b></span><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><span style="font-size:85%;"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/133284.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></span></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext"><span style="font-weight: bold;font-size:85%;" >If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><the banks=""><span style="font-weight: bold;"> . . . will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered . . . The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -- Thomas Jefferson</span> -- The Debate Over The Recharter Of The Bank Bill, (1809)<br /><br />"What is the robbing of a bank compared to the FOUNDING of a bank?" Bertolt Brecht</the></span></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><span style="font-size:85%;"><a name="2828368"></a></span><span class="medtext" style="font-size:85%;"><b>greyhound1966</b></span><span style="font-size:85%;"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/greyhound1966"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=170762"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=170762"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=170762"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=170762&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a></span> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"><span style="font-size:85%;">Thu Feb-07-08 05:16 AM<br />Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x2821847#2824729">Reply #107</a></span></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><span style="font-size:85%;"><b>185. Brilliant!</b></span><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td width="1%"><span style="font-size:85%;"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/170762.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></span></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext"> <span style="font-size:85%;"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/hi2.gif" alt=":hi:" title=":hi:" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title=":thumbsup:" /><br /></span></div></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-size:85%;"><br />/... <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x2821847">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x2821847</a></span><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-4812078138240410036?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-45184178891202130562008-02-04T09:45:00.002Z2008-02-05T09:37:08.058Zfoto: Costa norte de Fuerteventura desde la Bocaina.<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp2.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R6be7fcpD4I/AAAAAAAAABc/tjIFndGkNxs/s1600-h/BocainaLight-strip-web.jpg"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp2.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R6be7fcpD4I/AAAAAAAAABc/tjIFndGkNxs/s400/BocainaLight-strip-web.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5163059136462131074" border="0" /></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-4518417889120213056?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-22285399193494642732008-02-03T12:58:00.000Z2008-02-07T10:06:04.241ZA music video called "YES WE CAN"<div style="text-align: center;"><div style="text-align: left;"><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=132x4349153"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp1.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R6W66fcpD1I/AAAAAAAAABE/SbxsFmq2NWw/s200/logowhite-150.gif" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5162738061886951250" border="0" /></a>Sat Feb-02-08 05:30 PM<br /></div><div style="text-align: left;">Original message </div></div><table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>MUST SEE: Musicians/Actors turn Obama's NH speech into a music video called "YES WE CAN"<br /><br /></b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/130611.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="editline"><a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=132x4349153">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=132x4349153</a><br /><div style="text-align: left;">Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 05:36 PM by Bleachers7</div></div> <div class="medtext"><!-- google_ad_section_start --><span style="font-weight: bold;">This is amazing. This is a star studded cast.</span><br /><a style="font-weight: bold;" href="http://www.dipdive.com/" target="_blank">http://www.dipdive.com</a><br /></div></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.dipdive.com/"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp1.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R6g1AvcpD5I/AAAAAAAAABk/mV9lr4hzr5U/s320/Dipdive.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5163435259633143698" border="0" /></a><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yq0tMYPDJQ">Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yq0tMYPDJQ</a><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBn7FEtn0E8">abc News "What's the Buzz" </a><span><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBn7FEtn0E8">Interview with Will.i.am about celeb-filled music video Yes We Can: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBn7FEtn0E8</a><br /><br /></span><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-2228539919349464273?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-39400916113705680652008-02-03T12:43:00.000Z2008-02-03T13:21:44.066ZThe Evolution of Evil By Joel S. Hirschhorn: Perhaps a global political apocalypse has already arrived.<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_joel_s___080201_the_evolution_of_evi.htm"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp2.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R6W-mvcpD3I/AAAAAAAAABU/hFk_WluHbPM/s200/opednewslogo.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5162742120631046002" border="0" /></a><b><span style=";font-family:Arial;font-size:180%;" ></span></b><hr align="left" width="60%"> <p><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:130%;" ><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;font-size:78%;" >February 1, 2008</span> </span></span><b><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:130%;" ><br /></span></b></p><p><b><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:130%;" >The Evolution of Evil </span></b><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><i>By Joel S. Hirschhorn: </i></span><span style="font-size:11;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">Perhaps a global political apocalypse has already arrived.</span></span></span></span><span style="font-size:11;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:11;"></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">Activists and dissidents should understand that evil forces and tyrannical governments have evolved.<span> </span>Just as human knowledge and science expand, so do the strategies and instruments used by rulers, elites and plutocrats.<span> </span>By learning from history and using new technology they have smarter tools of tyranny.<span> </span>The best ones prevent uprisings, revolutions and political reforms.<span> </span>Rather than violently destroy rebellious movements, they let them survive as marginalized and ineffective efforts that divert and sap the energy of nonconformist and rebellious thinkers.<span> </span>Real revolution remains an energy-draining dream, as evil forces thrive.</span></span></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:100%;"></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">Most corrupt and legally sanctioned forms of tyranny hide in plain sight as democracies with free elections.<span> </span>The toughest lesson is that ALL elections are distractions. Nothing conceals tyranny better than elections.<span> </span>Few Americans accept that their government has become a two-party plutocracy run by a rich and powerful ruling class. The steady erosion of the rule of law is masked by everyday consumer freedoms.<span> </span>Because people want to be happy and hopeful, we have an epidemic of denial, especially in the present presidential campaign.<span> </span>But to believe that any change-selling politician or shift in party control will overturn the ruling class is the epitome of self-delusion and false hope.<span> </span>In the end, such wishful thinking perpetuates plutocracy.<span> </span>Proof is that plutocracy has flourished despite repeated change agents, promises of reform and partisan shifts.</span></span></span></span><span style=";font-family:Arial;font-size:100%;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" > </span></span></span></p><p><span style=";font-family:Arial;font-size:100%;" ></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">The tools of real rebellion are weak. Activists and dissidents look back and see successful rebellions and revolutions and think that when today’s victims of tyranny experience enough pain and see enough political stink they too will revolt.<span> </span>This is wrong.<span> </span>They think that the Internet spreads information and inspiration to the masses, motivating them to revolt.<span> </span>This is wrong.<span> </span>They await catastrophic economic or environmental collapse to spur rebellion.<span> </span>This too is wrong.</span></span></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:100%;"></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">Why are these beliefs wrong?<span> </span>Power elites have an arsenal of weapons to control and manipulate social, political and economic systems globally: corruption of public officials that make elections a sham; corporate mainstream media that turn news into propaganda; manipulation of financial markets that create fear for the public and profits for the privileged; false free trade globalization that destroys the middle class; rising economic inequality that keep the masses time-poor and financially insecure; intense marketing of pharmaceuticals that keep people passive; and addictive consumerism, entertainment and gambling that keep people distracted and pacified.</span></span></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:100%;"></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">The biggest challenge for dissidents and rebels is to avoid feel-good therapeutic activism having virtually no chance of removing evil and tyranny.<span> </span>Idealism without practicality tactics without lofty goals, and symbolic protests pose no threat to power elites.<span> </span>Anger and outrage require great strategic thinking from leaders seeking revolution, not mere change.<span> </span>And social entrepreneurs that use business and management skills to tackle genuine social problems do nothing to achieve political reforms.<span> </span>To the extent they achieve results they end up removing interest in overthrowing political establishments that have allowed the problems to fester.</span></span></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:100%;"></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">What is the new tool of tyranny?<span> </span>Technological connectivity achieved through advanced communications and computer systems, especially the rise of wireless connectivity.<span> </span>The global message to the masses is simple: Buy electronic products to stay plugged in. <span> </span><span> </span>Connectivity may give pleasure, but it gives even more power to elites, rulers and plutocrats.<span> </span>It allows them to coordinate their efforts through invisible cabals, to closely monitor everything that ordinary people and dissidents do, and to cooperatively and clandestinely adjust social, financial and political systems to maintain stability and dominance.</span></span></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:100%;"></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">In this dystopian world all systems are integrated to serve upper class elites and the corporate state, not ordinary people.<span> </span>When ordinary people spend their money to be more shackled to connectivity products, they become unwitting victims of largely invisible governmental and corporate oppressive forces.<span> </span>They are oblivious that their technological seduction exacerbates their political and economic exploitation.<span> </span>Though some 70 percent believe the country is on the wrong track, they fail to see the deeper causes of the trend.<span> </span>And if Americans were really happy and content with their consumer culture, then why are they stuffing themselves with so many antidepressants, sleeping pills and totally unhealthy foods?<span> </span>In truth, the vast majority of people are in denial about the rotten system they are trapped in (aka The Matrix).<span> </span>They are manipulated to keep hope alive through voting, despite the inability of past elections to stop the slide into economic serfdom.</span></span></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><br /></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:11;"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">/... <a href="http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_joel_s___080201_the_evolution_of_evi.htm">http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/print_friendly.php?p=opedne_joel_s___080201_the_evolution_of_evi.htm</a><br /></span></span></span></span></p><span style="font-size:11;"></span><span style="font-size:11;"></span><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-3940091611370568065?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-19724148835756378372008-02-03T09:27:00.001Z2008-02-07T10:02:57.499ZEspías y Armas Estadounidenses en las Islas Canarias<div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"></span><span style="font-weight: bold;">Espías y Armas Estadounidenses en las Islas Canarias</span></span><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><br /></span></div><ul><li><span style="font-weight: bold;">Vuelos de Rendición:</span> <span style="font-size:85%;"><a href="http://www.periodicocnt.org/327oct2006/19/">32 escalas en Tenerife de aviones fletados por la CIA</a> para el traslado por medio mundo de supuestos terroristas, detenidos sin cargos oficiales y sin la menor cobertura legal, y llevados a centros secretos u oficiales propios o de terceros países con el fin de burlar las leyes y someterlos a interrogatorios humillantes y torturas.<br /><br /></span></li><li><span style="font-weight: bold;">Buques de Suministro</span>: <span style="font-size:85%;">buques de los <a href="http://www.pccanarias.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=73&amp;Itemid=44">escuadrones de preposición de la Armada estadounidense</a>, que participaban en acciones de abastecimiento de armas -incluidas químicas- a los conflictos armados en Afganistán e Irak, realizaron 35 escalas en los puertos de Las Palmas, Santa Cruz y Arrecife sólo entre noviembre de 2002 y marzo de 2005.<br /><br /></span></li><li><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Puestos de Espionaje:</span></span> presencia en los entornos de los aeropuertos canarios de Los Rodeos y Gando de los denominados <a href="http://guerrasionista.wordpress.com/2006/04/16/la-cia-posee-centros-de-escuchas-en-los-alrededores-de-aeropuertos-canarios/">Centros de Tecnología de Inteligencia Contraterrorista</a> (CTIC), dependientes del gabinete de Defensa de la administración Bush.</span></li></ul><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-size:85%;">cf. el<br /></span><br /></span></span><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp3.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R6rTKvcpD7I/AAAAAAAAAB0/tTdMgG8YFhs/s1600-h/can-sat1.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp3.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R6rTKvcpD7I/AAAAAAAAAB0/tTdMgG8YFhs/s200/can-sat1.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5164172104222445490" border="0" /></a><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-size:100%;"><br /><a href="http://www.basesfuera.org/convenio.pdf">Convenio de Cooperación para la Defensa</a>, firmado por España y Estados Unidos en 1988, y reforzado y ampliado en 2003 con el <a href="http://www.lexureditorial.com/boe/0302/03595.htm">Protocolo de Enmienda</a>.<br /></span></span></span><div style="text-align: center;"><br />·<br />·<br />·<br /></div><br />Dice textualmente el artículo 2 del mencionado Convenio: "España concede a Estados Unidos de América el uso de instalaciones de apoyo y otorga autorizaciones de uso en el territorio, mar territorial y espacio aéreo españoles para <span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">objetivos dentro del ámbito bilateral o multilateral</span></span>".<br /><br />... Pero también se acordaron medidas de cooperación en materia antiterrorista, gracias a las cuales los <span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">servicios de espionaje </span></span>de ambos países se intercambian información y pueden llegar a trabajar conjuntamente en determinadas operaciones, principalmente en la lucha contra el terrorismo de cariz islamista radical. <span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"></span><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 0);">Con la cobertura de los acuerdos bilaterales y la buena relación de los servicios secretos, Estados Unidos pensó que no tendría incovenientes en usar a </span></span><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(204, 0, 0);">Canarias como una base crucial e imprescindible para su enorme despliegue militar.</span></span><br /><br /><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Vuelos, buques y escuchas</span></span><br /><br />En este contexto y según el reciente informe del eurodiputado italiano Claudio Fava, son 32 las escalas en Tenerife de los <span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">aviones fletados por la CIA</span></span> para el traslado por medio mundo de supuestos terroristas, detenidos sin cargos oficiales y sin la menor cobertura legal, y llevados a centros secretos u oficiales propios o de terceros países con el fin de burlar las leyes y someterlos a interrogatorios humillantes y torturas. Asimismo, el Gobierno central confirmaba el año pasado a requerimiento de PSC, IU e ICV que buques de los <span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">escuadrones de preposición de la Armada estadounidense</span></span>, que participaban en acciones de abastecimiento de armas -incluidas químicas- a los conflictos armados en Afganistán e Irak, realizaron 35 escalas en los puertos de Las Palmas, Santa Cruz y Arrecife sólo entre noviembre de 2002 y marzo de 2005.<br /><br />El último episodio conocido es la presencia en los entornos de los aeropuertos canarios de Los Rodeos y Gando de los denominados <span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Centros de Tecnología de Inteligencia Contraterrorista </span></span>(CTIC), dependientes del gabinete de Defensa de la administración Bush, que motivó dos iniciativas de solicitud de información el pasado mes de abril del grupo de IU-ICV, tanto en el Parlamento español como en el de la Unión Europea. El despliegue de estos centros y el paso por Canarias de los buques con armamento entrarían en las competencias de los convenios, pero no así los vuelos de la CIA.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.blogger.com/...%20http://canarias.indymedia.org/newswire/display/15712/index.php">/... http://canarias.indymedia.org/newswire/display/15712/index.php</a><br /><br />Notes:<br /><span style="font-size:85%;"><br /></span><ul><li><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" width="65%"><span style=";font-family:Arial;font-size:78%;" > Miércoles, 3 de mayo de 2000 </span> </td> <td align="right" valign="top" width="35%"> <a href="http://www.elmundo.es/2000/05/03/index.html"><img src="http://www.el-mundo.es/cdf/imagen/mper100.gif" alt="EL MUNDO periodico" border="0" height="24" width="100" /></a> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <b><span style="font-size:130%;"> </span></b><a href="http://www.elmundo.es/2000/05/03/espana/03N0005.html"><span style="font-size:85%;">El nuevo Gobierno pedirá renegociar el Convenio de Defensa con EEUU.</span></a><div><span style=";font-family:Arial;font-size:100%;" > </span></div><div><span style=";font-family:Arial;font-size:100%;" ><i><span style="font-size:85%;">Aznar desea un replanteamiento de la presencia militar norteamericana en España en función de nuestra plena integración en OTAN - EEUU ha transmitido su deseo de potenciar el uso de la base de Rota - Exteriores buscará el apoyo de Washington para conseguir un puesto en el Consejo de Seguridad de la ONU en el 2003.</span></i></span></div></li><li><span style=";font-family:Arial;font-size:100%;" ><a href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;ct=res&amp;cd=1&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.basesfuera.org%2Fconvenio.pdf&amp;ei=H5ulR5H2F6jGnAPairXiBA&amp;usg=AFQjCNG3K4rSWr-lkWMzx_oOrVrPikHGJA&amp;sig2=XNIIVM-PmTS11_f32EbwAQ"><span style="font-size:85%;"></span></a><span style="font-size:85%;"><a>Convenio de Cooperacion para la Defensa entre el Reino de España y los Estados Unidos de America, de 1 de Diciembre de1988</a>.</span><i><span style="font-size:85%;"><br /></span></i></span></li><li><span style="font-size:85%;"><a href="http://www.lexureditorial.com/boe/0707/13681.htm" title="Convenio de cooperación para la defensa entre España y Estados Unidos">Acuerdo administrativo de desarrollo del Convenio de cooperación para la defensa entre el Reino de España y los Estados Unidos de América, de 1 de diciembre de 1988, hecho en Madrid el 10 de abril de 2002. </a></span><a href="http://www.lexureditorial.com/boe/0707/13681.htm" title="Convenio de cooperación para la defensa entre España y Estados Unidos"><span style="font-size:85%;">- Boletín Oficial del Estado de 16 de Julio de 2007</span></a><span style="font-size:85%;"><a href="http://www.lexureditorial.com/boe/0707/13681.htm" title="Convenio de cooperación para la defensa entre España y Estados Unidos">.</a></span><span style="font-size:85%;"><br /></span></li><li><span style="font-size:85%;"><a href="http://www.lexureditorial.com/boe/0302/03595.htm">Protocolo de enmienda del Convenio de Cooperación para la defensa entre el Reino de España y los Estados Unidos de América, de 1 de diciembre de 1988, hecho en Madrid el 10 de abril de 2002. - Boletín Oficial del Estado de 21 de febrero de 2003</a></span><span style="font-size:85%;"><a href="http://www.lexureditorial.com/boe/0302/03595.htm">.</a></span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"></span></span><span style="font-weight: bold;"></span></li><li><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"></span><a href="http://www.mde.es/contenido.jsp?id_nodo=4051&amp;&amp;&amp;keyword=&amp;auditoria=F">Acuerdos bilaterales:</a></span><a href="http://www.mde.es/contenido.jsp?id_nodo=4051&amp;&amp;&amp;keyword=&amp;auditoria=F"> <span style="font-size:85%;">Derechos reconocidos a favor de las Fuerzas Armadas de España en los Estados Unidos de América.</span></a></li></ul><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-1972414883575637837?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-11269696778121786812008-02-03T01:45:00.000Z2008-02-03T11:03:22.258ZOil companies, Oil-Services companies and Oil-Rich countries. Another twist in the ongoing "ironical consequences of outsourcing" saga.<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp1.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R6Ur5fcpDxI/AAAAAAAAAAk/k0wKBSJCtio/s1600-h/_40801127_migrant_afp203body_edited.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp1.blogger.com/_hMe2tPlWL14/R6Ur5fcpDxI/AAAAAAAAAAk/k0wKBSJCtio/s320/_40801127_migrant_afp203body_edited.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5162580814544310034" border="0" /></a><br />Oil-services companies such as Schlumberger, the world's largest, closely followed by the likes of Halliburton, Baker Hughes, Weatherford International and Smith International, undertake much of the actual boots-on-the ground exploration and production engineering and maintenance work that provide oil companies (and by extension society at large) around the world with their life-blood. At administrative and management levels, other service companies are contracted to provide everything an oil company needs from project design and management through accountancy and legal services, marketing, supply and of course customer relations requirements (the infamous help-desk in Bangalore and similar). The oil company itself is on course to be transformed into little more than a hard, extremely wealthy core providing finance and strategic management to the aforesaid exploration and production projects. Everything else can be outsourced.<br /><br />One ironic consequence of this is that oil-rich countries and other title-holders to potential underground petroleum and gas resources find they too can turn to the same outsourced-services providers as the oil companies, in the process cutting out the oil companies themselves, and their take, as middlemen. Nils Pratley's Viewpoint <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/feb/01/3">"The growing fly in Big Oil's ointment"</a> in the financial pages of the Guardian, 1 Feb 2008, puts it this way: "Oil-rich nations no longer feel the need to ring a member of the Big Oil club when they want to exploit their natural resources." Such national oil majors as Aramco of Saudi Arabia and others across Asia, Africa and Latin America, as well as Norway and, effectively, Russia come to mind as model alternatives quite independent of mostly G7-based Big Oil but highly dependent on the flotilla of services companies attending them.<br /><br />Another rather ironic but, it is to be hoped, healthy consequence could be summed up in the nicely Orwellian-sounding phrase: "Small business good; Big business bad."<br /><br />Consider this: This division of labour, as it were, amongst a plethora of much smaller services companies (the largest, Schlumberger itself, is but a quarter of the size of Exxon) opens up the field of services provision to the kinds of open competition, manouverability and innovation only smaller businesses can provide. Such flexibility and diversity is surely both ecologically and economically more sound than the monolithic-titanic model Big Oil may have been more accustomed to up to now, and will undoubtedly thrive to the point of eventually rendering the Big companies themselves obsolete.<br /><br />Always within limits set by effective regulation, such breaking-down of large and very-large corporations into leaner, more efficient and competitive relative tiddlers able to react quickly to such changing conditions and requirements as, for example, new energy projects would appear to be both natual and intelligent at this point in history and should be encouraged and applied in all areas of a healthy economy.<br /><br />The Exxons and Wal-Marts of this world need to be broken up and cut down to size. The liberation of creative economic energy this would release is what will be needed if we're to power the next wave of economic evolution heading into what will clearly now be a fragile and potentially fractious future.<br /><br />· ecologicando<br /><br /><a href="http://ecologicando.blogspot.com/2008/02/oil-companies-oil-services-companies.html">http://ecologicando.blogspot.com/2008/02/oil-companies-oil-services-companies.html</a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(204, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">notes:</span><br /></span><a href="http://buyupside.com/sample_portfolios/oilservice.htm">Philadelphia Oil Service Index</a> (<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=%5Eosx" target="_blank">^OSX</a>)<div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5551610044219648730-1126969677812178681?l=ecologicando.blogspot.com'/></div><b>ecologicando</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12319604599644270346noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5551610044219648730.post-67840588238621057572008-01-02T01:44:00.001Z2008-04-06T02:00:31.107+01:00Death Spiral<input name="domains" value="democraticunderground.com" type="hidden"><input name="client" value="pub-7805397860504090" type="hidden"><input name="forid" value="1" type="hidden"><input name="ie" value="ISO-8859-1" type="hidden"><input name="oe" value="ISO-8859-1" type="hidden"><input name="cof" value="GALT:#008000;GL:1;DIV:#336699;VLC:663399;AH:center;BGC:FFFFFF;LBGC:336699;ALC:0000FF;LC:0000FF;T:000000;GFNT:0000FF;GIMP:0000FF;FORID:11" type="hidden"><input name="hl" value="en" type="hidden"> <!-- google_ad_section_start --> <h1 class="bigtext" align="center"><b>We're in the Death Spiral.</b></h1> <!-- google_ad_section_end --> <table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td class="smalltext" valign="bottom"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/printer_friendly.gif" alt="Printer-friendly format" border="0" height="12" width="22" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023" class="smallblack"> Printer-friendly format</a><br /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=email_to_friend&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/email_to_friend.gif" alt="Printer-friendly format" border="0" height="12" width="22" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=email_to_friend&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023" class="smallblack"> Email this thread to a friend</a><br /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=bookmark&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/bookmark.gif" alt="Printer-friendly format" border="0" height="12" width="22" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=bookmark&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023" class="smallblack"> Bookmark this thread</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" valign="bottom"><a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3111649"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/previous_topic.gif" alt="Previous Thread" border="0" height="11" width="15" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3111649" class="smallblack">Previous thread</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3111775" class="smallblack">Next thread</a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3111775"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/next_topic.gif" alt="Next Thread" border="0" height="11" width="15" /></a> </td></tr></tbody></table><table class="topnavtable" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="bluetext"><b><a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/" class="bluetext">Home</a> » <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/" class="bluetext">Discuss</a> » <!-- google_ad_section_start --> <b><a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&amp;forum=389" class="bluetext">General Discussion</a></b> <!-- google_ad_section_end --></b></td> <td class="bluetext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Ghost%20Dog"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/myjournal.gif" alt="My Journal" title="My Journal" border="0" /></a><a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/donate.html"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donate_blue.gif" alt="Donate to DU" title="Donate to DU" border="0" height="15" width="50" /></a> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110023"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Finnfan</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=113465&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 01:40 PM<br /> Original message</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>We're in the Death Spiral.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 1:41 PM" title="Updated at 1:41 PM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/113465.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext"><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Yesterday, the government released the latest jobless figures. The jobless rate is now 5.1%, and we've lost almost a quarter of a million jobs in 2008 alone.<br /><br />NOBODY is talking about the implications of this, even on DU. This is a slow-motion disaster in the making because there are no jobs being created to replace the ones we are losing. There isn't even any mechanism for job creation currently in place. Our economy is the perfect storm. People are spending less due to lower wages and property values, higher prices, and job loss. Employers are dealing with the lower revenue by cutting jobs. IT'S A DEATH SPIRAL. Unlike in the 90's and the early part of this decade, there isn't even a "bubble" that we can ride to bail us out.<br /><br />Our candidates, and many posters here, talk about a "green revolution" that will help to bail us out. This is a total pipe dream that completely ignores the way our corporate economy works. As things get tighter and tighter, companies are going to focus on getting the most bang for their buck. They are going to CUT more jobs and they are going to CUT green initiatives. If we had had a reasonable President and a congress willing to fight, the time to inact legislation on this was several years ago, when times were good. It's too late now. We're already in the death spiral.<br /><br />Take a listen to those who say, even here, that everything's going to be fine. What evidence are they providing? How many of them give a variation of the argument "This is America, we'll figure it out', or "There are always economic naysayers"? How many of them will mention one market or commodity as evidence, or one good day on Wall Street, while ignoring the macroeconomic factors cited above?<br /><br />It is well past time for our candidates, and our community, to begin an open, HONEST dialogue about what the future holds for us. We need to discuss, with relatively clear heads, what that data means and the painful measures that we are going to have to undertake. People need to get their heads out of the sand and deal with this. And that goes double for Ms. Clinton and Mr. Obama.<br /><br />Please keep this kicked.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></div> <br /><div><!-- AddThis Bookmark Button BEGIN --> <a href="http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php" onclick="addthis_url = location.href; addthis_title = document.title; return addthis_click(this);" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/images/share-bookmark.gif" border="0" height="22" width="228" /></a> <script type="text/javascript">var addthis_pub = 'du_addthis';</script><script type="text/javascript" src="http://s9.addthis.com/js/widget.php?v=10"></script> <!-- AddThis Bookmark Button END --></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110023" class="smallblack">Alert</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=hide_thread&amp;forum=389&amp;thread=3110023" class="smallblack">Hide Thread</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=nominate&amp;forum=389&amp;thread=3110023" class="smallblack" onclick="return confirm('Are you sure you want to recommend this thread?')">Recommend</a> (25 votes)</td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110023" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110023" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110023" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="medtext"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/downarrow.gif" height="10" width="10" /> Replies to this thread</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- google_ad_section_start --> <table class="toctable" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110034">a green revolution is a way out, and is possible, although</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> ixion </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 01:45 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #1 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110072">The green revolution is definitely the way out. When we needed </a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> jwirr </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:00 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #5 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111784">Within the last two years my local paper has begun to run a weekly</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> mdmc </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-06-08 12:04 AM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #67 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110042">5.1% is only the OFFICIAL unemployment rate</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Lydia Leftcoast </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 01:49 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #2 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110050">Yes, and not including those catagories is just another way to not talk about the problem.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Finnfan </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 01:53 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #3 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111182">I think getting those categories counted needs to be done now while bush is still in office</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> That Guy 888 </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 08:06 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #44 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110093">Dont' forget that other all important govt job statistic of 1person / 1 job.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Pharlo </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:10 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #11 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110055">"Make work" jobs. By the million. Count on it. No other choice.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Bonobo </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 01:55 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #4 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110078">Probably right</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Robb </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:03 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #8 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110080">With what money?</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Finnfan </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:05 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #9 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110091">With what money do we do anything? With what money are we in Iraq?</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Bonobo </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:10 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #10 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110101">You, like all Americans, seem to believe it can go on forever.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Finnfan </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:14 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #12 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110108">I'm as worried as you, pal.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Bonobo </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:16 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #13 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110247">Our debt to GDP levels are nowhere near the worst in the world.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Zynx </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 03:19 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #28 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111196">When china goes, times up, pay</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> nadinbrzezinski </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 08:10 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #46 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110250">We're running out of credit</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> notesdev </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 03:20 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #29 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111470">The pisser with "make work" jobs</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> XemaSab </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 09:44 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #53 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110075">the only way that a "green revolution" can help</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> frogcycle </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:00 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #6 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110127">Then who will buy the cheap labor made crap from these corprat bastards?</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Blue State Native </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:28 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #17 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111423">No, they don't think long term.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> girl gone mad </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 09:27 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #51 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110076">Whadja mean "there are no jobs being created"?</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> JohnyCanuck </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:01 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #7 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110109">Bill Maher said it best last night on HBO. It was super great.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> 0007 </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:18 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #14 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110111">I missed it. What did he say? nt</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Finnfan </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:19 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #15 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110126">The size repair the world needs</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> realpolitik </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:27 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #16 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110132">The economy base is bubbles, financial alchemy, shadow banking, questionable govt economic stats, </a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> flashl </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:28 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #18 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110152">The US economy is just suffering the typical effects of Milton Friedman's</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> fasttense </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:35 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #19 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110158">Much of that info is covered in the book "The Shock Doctrine".</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Finnfan </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:38 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #20 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110160">Yes, I've read it but you can't get it on line.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> fasttense </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:39 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #21 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110172">Savor the irony... it may be predatory capitalism that makes the vast majority of the world equal</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> JCMach1 </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:44 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #23 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110359">It wasn't a free market</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> notesdev </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 03:58 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #35 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110168">Kick nt</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> OhioBlues </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:42 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #22 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110176">The rulers of the world consider "open, HONEST dialogue" with the masses to be foolhardy &amp; dangerous</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> lostnfound </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:48 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #24 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110193">We have crumbling infrastructure and millions of idle workers</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> tularetom </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 02:56 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #25 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110216">If you are not living well within your means (like below 60% of intake), you'd better get there by </a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Kip Humphrey </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 03:03 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #26 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110246">You explained a phenomenon that has happened about a thousand times around the world</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Zynx </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 03:18 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #27 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110259">So you're saying that there is nothing different about this recession?</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Finnfan </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 03:25 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #30 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110309">I'm with Finnfan here: This recession feels different</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Lydia Leftcoast </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 03:43 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #33 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110686">"around the world" are much lower standards of living. You want to live like an Indonesian?</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> WinkyDink </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 05:29 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #42 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111206">The fundamentals of THIS recession are closer to 1929</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> nadinbrzezinski </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 08:15 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #47 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111673">this is how every recession looks-tell me you are not that stupid</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> natrat </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 11:20 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #62 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110268">On the bright side:</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Turbineguy </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 03:28 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #31 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110271">I'm sorry, but I think that 9 months from now</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Finnfan </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 03:29 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #32 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110349">Making the change 4 years ago</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Turbineguy </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 03:53 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #34 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111536">You think that electing a democrat will magically make the economy better?</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> XemaSab </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 10:15 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #54 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111590">I hate to say it but a democrat will be better for my pocket book BUT</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> nadinbrzezinski </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 10:42 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #57 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110405">I did my little bit, wish it could be more</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Autumn Colors </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 04:09 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #36 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110421">I wish you the best of continued luck.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Finnfan </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 04:13 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #37 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110473">One thing in our favor</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> notesdev </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 04:28 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #39 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110460">A major restructuring and revamping of the infrastructure is needed.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> quadriga </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 04:25 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #38 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110619">Close to home here: 4 airlines shut down in the last week.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Turn CO Blue </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 05:12 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #40 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110683">What was that Nader said about the Gore-Bush equivalence? And he dares show his face.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> WinkyDink </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 05:28 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #41 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110728">Kick &amp; Rec</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Journalgrrl </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 05:41 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #43 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111540">People like you and I are invisible</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Hydra </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 10:17 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #55 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111185">The Doomsday List</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> PATRICK </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 08:06 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #45 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111269">Tell this Michigander about it.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> knitter4democracy </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 08:38 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #48 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111350">Death spiral</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> dawgman </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 08:58 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #49 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111371">Add to that death spiral the rejection of Keyensian economics and the</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Elspeth </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 09:08 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #50 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111449">This is a slight tangent, but I was SHOCKED I TELL YA</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> XemaSab </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 09:34 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #52 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111585">I work retail</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> TwixVoy </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 10:39 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #56 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111594">I produce a luxury product Role Playing Games, DITO</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> nadinbrzezinski </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 10:43 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #58 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111600">It is scary</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> TwixVoy </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 10:46 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #59 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111778">My husband is a Used Car manager and so far the store is selling </a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Blue State Native </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-06-08 12:00 AM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #66 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111607">I can't send you a PM yet, but I'm curious to know where you work.</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Finnfan </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 10:48 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #60 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111672">Well</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> TwixVoy </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 11:20 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #61 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111706">Also</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> TwixVoy </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 11:30 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #63 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111732">It's what's called an "inflationary depression".</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> roamer65 </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 11:37 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #64 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/middle_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111766">I think the term is stagflation?</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> TwixVoy </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-05-08 11:53 PM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #65 </td> </tr><tr><td class="toclite-med" nowrap="nowrap" width="97%"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/last_mesg_level.gif" border="0" height="15" width="15" /><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/new_reply_message.gif" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111822">How about a new CCC?</a></td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> alarimer </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> Apr-06-08 12:25 AM </td> <td class="toclite-sm" align="center" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%"> #68 </td> </tr></tbody></table><!-- google_ad_section_end --> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110034"></a><span class="medtext"><b>ixion</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/ixion"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=117055"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=117055"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=117055"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=117055&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 01:45 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>1. a green revolution is a way out, and is possible, although</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/117055.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">thanks to the corporate shills a.k.a. congress, there is nothing to encourage such a revolution.<br /><br />I do think that we're discussing this on DU, although I do see a handful of those who claim everything will be fine.<br /><br />I am not one of those people.<br /><br />It IS time for an HONEST dialog. Hell, it's been time for that for decades. That's why I don't think we'll see any such thing. Honesty seems to be anathema to our government. </div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110034" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110034" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110034" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110034" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110072"></a><span class="medtext"><b>jwirr</b></span> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=147604"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=147604"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=147604"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=147604&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:00 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110034">Reply #1</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>5. The green revolution is definitely the way out. When we needed </b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/gore2008a.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">change in 1930 it came from changing old ways into new. Today we have an old system based on oil that is very destructive both to nature as well as our own wellbeing. We can only revitalize our world by going back to sustainable living for all countries and basing it on principles of simplicity and shared responsibility.<br /><br />I have a foster child in Tanzania - what I would like to see for him is a safe sustainable lifestyle that can be maintained where he lives. That is going to be hard but it is the only hope that he has in the coming chaos.<br /><br />I think the same is true of the US. We need to get back to basics. I do not need most of what I have in my room (live with children) and I would not buy it new. But I would work in the garden helping to raise food locally for my own family with the surplus going to others. I am helping to raise chickens the old fashion way even though I could buy eggs and chicken in the store cheaper but this way I know what I have. I am helping to set up energy efficient homes as much as we can and there are many more green issues that will in the end provide both self generated items and things that I cannot get for myself but will require new US jobs to provide.<br /><br />Instead of globalization we need localized sustainable living. </div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110072" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110072" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110072" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110072" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111784"></a><span class="medtext"><b>mdmc</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/mdmc"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=127818"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=127818"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=127818"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=127818&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sun Apr-06-08 12:04 AM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110072">Reply #5</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>67. Within the last two years my local paper has begun to run a weekly</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/127818.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">article on localized sustainable living.<br /><br />I think that it is the <b>only</b> thing that can bail us out.<br /><br />Act locally.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111784" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111784" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111784" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111784" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110042"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Lydia Leftcoast</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=101602"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=101602"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=101602"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=101602&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 01:49 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>2. 5.1% is only the OFFICIAL unemployment rate</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/minnesota.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">It does not count<br /><br />1) Discouraged workers--those who have given up on finding a job, such as those who are in a town that has lost its main industry but are "too poor to leave."<br /><br />2) People who are working part-time when they would rather work full-time<br /><br />3) People who have been forced to take jobs at a fraction of what they used to earn<br /><br />4) Recent high school or college graduates who have been unable to find a job<br /><br />5) The incarcerated</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110042" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110042" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110042" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110042" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110050"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Finnfan</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=113465&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 01:53 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110042">Reply #2</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>3. Yes, and not including those catagories is just another way to not talk about the problem.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 1:41 PM" title="Updated at 1:41 PM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/113465.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/grr.gif" alt=":grr:" title=":grr:" /></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110050" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110050" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110050" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110050" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111182"></a><span class="medtext"><b>That Guy 888</b></span> (27 posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=210494"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=210494"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=210494"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=210494&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 08:06 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110050">Reply #3</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>44. I think getting those categories counted needs to be done now while bush is still in office</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/transparent.gif" border="0" height="1" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">...otherwise the media will be only to happy to blame the adjusted unemployment figures on the new Democratic President.<br /><br />Dealing with the coming economic realities will be tough enough without having to fight right-wing nut fantasies too.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111182" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111182" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111182" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111182" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110093"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Pharlo</b></span> (731 posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=150636"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=150636"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=150636"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=150636&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:10 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110042">Reply #2</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>11. Dont' forget that other all important govt job statistic of 1person / 1 job.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/transparent.gif" border="0" height="1" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext"><br /><br />Whenever the government puts out new job statistics, they ASSUME that 1 person = 1 job. Whereas, with many retail / service sector jobs, it SHOULD be 1 person = 2 or 3 jobs.<br /><br /></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110093" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110093" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110093" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110093" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110055"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Bonobo</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=124335"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=124335"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=124335"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=124335&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 01:55 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>4. "Make work" jobs. By the million. Count on it. No other choice.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/chimp.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">You are right. Something must be done. Your post ignores this very real likelihood.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110055" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110055" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110055" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110055" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110078"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Robb</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Robb"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=100037"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=100037"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=100037"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=100037&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:03 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110055">Reply #4</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>8. Probably right</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/100037.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">...some poster here said (ages ago) the next president needs to be another FDR, not another Kennedy. I forget which candidate s/he was bashing at the time. <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/happy.gif" alt=":)" title=":)" /><br /><br />But true enough. Hopefully with a vision to get something useful out of the busy work.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110078" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110078" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110078" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110078" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110080"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Finnfan</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=113465&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:05 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110055">Reply #4</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>9. With what money?</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 1:41 PM" title="Updated at 1:41 PM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/113465.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">I know that was FDR's plan after the depression, but we weren't trillions of dollars in debt at the time; we had the money to spend on such initiatives. I think it is extremely unrealistic to expect that we could pay for this now.<br /><br />Another important thing to consider about debt: the credit crisis is causing major ripples in state and local governments. One more blow to that industry and those governments could instantly lose their ability to borrow to raise money for initiatives of their own.<br /><br />I know you mean well, but you're kind of proving my point: very, very few are really admitting the extent of the problem. We need to start being honest with ourselves.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110080" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110080" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110080" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110080" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110091"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Bonobo</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=124335"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=124335"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=124335"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=124335&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:10 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110080">Reply #9</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>10. With what money do we do anything? With what money are we in Iraq?</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/chimp.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">I must admit my ignorance of economics, but I have never understood this.<br /><br />We can go to war on credit, hire mercenaries on credit, build bombs on credit, bribe nations on credit, but we cannot:<br /><br />-Give ourselves health insurance (on credit)<br />-Fund our schools at 1/1000th of the cost of a year in Ira (on credit)<br />-Refund Social Security (on credit)<br /><br />Why? Like I said, I am not an economist. Explain it to me, please.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110091" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110091" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110091" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110091" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110101"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Finnfan</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=113465&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:14 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110091">Reply #10</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>12. You, like all Americans, seem to believe it can go on forever.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 1:41 PM" title="Updated at 1:41 PM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/113465.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">It can't. A few years ago, we might have been able to deal with it. But thanks, in part, to the factors cited above and in part to American's belief that the money will never run out, I believe it's too late now.<br /><br />Eventually, people stop lending you money. Or run out of money to lend you. Or demand you start paying them back so that they can fund their own "make jobs" programs.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110101" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110101" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110101" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110101" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110108"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Bonobo</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=124335"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=124335"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=124335"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=124335&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:16 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110101">Reply #12</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>13. I'm as worried as you, pal.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/chimp.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <br /></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110108" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110108" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110108" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110108" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110247"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Zynx</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Zynx"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=132385"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=132385"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=132385"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=132385&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 03:19 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110101">Reply #12</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>28. Our debt to GDP levels are nowhere near the worst in the world.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/wisconsin.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">Japan has far worse and can borrow freely.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110247" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110247" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110247" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110247" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111196"></a><span class="medtext"><b>nadinbrzezinski</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/nadinbrzezinski"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=127191"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=127191"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=127191"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=127191&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 08:10 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110101">Reply #12</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>46. When china goes, times up, pay</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/nadinbrzezinski"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 12:50 AM" title="Updated at 12:50 AM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/cthulhu.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">people will get it, not a second before<br /><br />Why china does not need to physically go to war... with us</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111196" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111196" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111196" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111196" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110250"></a><span class="medtext"><b>notesdev</b></span> (65 posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/notesdev"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=217900"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=217900"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=217900"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=217900&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 03:20 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110091">Reply #10</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>29. We're running out of credit</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/transparent.gif" border="0" height="1" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">Hard to pay for new things when it gets harder and harder to find the money to pay for it. Foreign investors would have to be crazy to pay for anything denominated in dollars now.<br /><br />We've basically been running on an infinite-term, interest-only loan of gargantuan proportions. Plus, the gov't cooks the books six ways from Sunday; your average man on the street can tell you the unemployment and inflation numbers are a crock.<br /><br />If you or I ran our finances the way the government does... the government would arrest us.<br /><br />This is the end result of the business of Washington DC becoming a game to see who can stuff the most taxpayer dollars in their buddies' pockets.<br /></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110250" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110250" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110250" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110250" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111470"></a><span class="medtext"><b>XemaSab</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/XemaSab"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=156299"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=156299"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=156299"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=156299&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 09:44 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110055">Reply #4</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>53. The pisser with "make work" jobs</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/156299.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">is that the building trades (which a lot of these jobs would be) are already limping, and undercutting wages could hurt the already employed. Also, I think people would be less likely to want to relocate in this day and age for massive projects like dams.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111470" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111470" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111470" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111470" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110075"></a><span class="medtext"><b>frogcycle</b></span> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/frogcycle"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=191356"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=191356"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=191356"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=191356&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:00 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>6. the only way that a "green revolution" can help</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/transparent.gif" border="0" height="1" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">is if we launch a Manhattan Project or Apollo Program - like massive effort. Big federal spending with lots of corporations working toward a national goal. It would be like the CCC, WPA, etc.<br /><br />This CAN turn the tide. The country as a "megacorporation" CAN regain a competitive advantage in the world marketplace, wherein we have the technology and capability to do stuff and make stuff that everyone else wants. it would not be driven just by people wanting cool, enviro-friendly stuff - it would be driven by the demand for alternatives to the oil/coal -based economies. It would require not just creating expensive elitist stuff, but legitimate means of capturing solar energy (whether direct, wind, water) and possibly tidal and geothermal MORE economically than releasing the sequestered solar energy via combustion.<br /><br />This CAN be done, and a serious mega-research/engineering/manufacturing/deployment effort could vault someone into a dominate global economic position. It WILL be done eventually - if not soon, then a few decades out, or even a century. But without question, the world will run on something other than dead plants and animals a couple of hundred years from now.<br /><br />HOWEVER, that would require pretty much dismantling the existing multinational corporations that would rather have those developments occur in their cheap-labor locations.<br /><br />It would require pouring money into the program like we are now pouring it into the pockets of big oil and big MIC. It would most assuredly be deficit spending, just as were the New Deal programs that brought us TVA, national parks, roads, bridges, etc. If you look at the US as an entity attempting to compete in the marketplace, then that entity needs to develop a new product line, because the old one is not selling. And as you say, we are in a death spiral clinging to it.<br /><br />It would require scrapping the "free trade" approach and going back to cutthroat competition. Tariffs!<br /><br />Alternatively, we can let the global economy be the great equalizer, and continue to slip toward the day when the standards of living in India, China, and the US are equivalent.<br /><br /></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110075" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110075" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110075" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110075" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110127"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Blue State Native</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Blue%20State%20Native"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=104093"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=104093"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=104093"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=104093&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:28 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110075">Reply #6</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>17. Then who will buy the cheap labor made crap from these corprat bastards?</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/edwards2008b.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">When we can no longer afford to purchase their crap because of no job or slave wages, won't their profits be greatly diminished, too? Guess these GREEDHEADS are not into long term thinking are they? <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/shrug.gif" alt=":shrug:" title=":shrug:" /> </div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110127" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110127" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110127" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110127" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111423"></a><span class="medtext"><b>girl gone mad</b></span> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=132159"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=132159"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=132159"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=132159&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 09:27 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110127">Reply #17</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>51. No, they don't think long term.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/atheist.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">It's been that way for years now. Public corporations are run with the goal of getting share prices to rally through short term moves.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111423" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111423" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111423" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111423" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110076"></a><span class="medtext"><b>JohnyCanuck</b></span> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=111413"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=111413"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=111413&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:01 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>7. Whadja mean "there are no jobs being created"?</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/transparent.gif" border="0" height="1" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">Of course there are jobs for those who want to work and not just sit around and gripe and complain that there are no jobs. The Cheney/Bush job creation machine, aka The US Army, has lots of entry level positions open. <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/sarcasm.gif" alt=":sarcasm:" title=":sarcasm:" /></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110076" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110076" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110076" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110076" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110109"></a><span class="medtext"><b>0007</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/0007"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=105657"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=105657"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=105657"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=105657&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:18 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>14. Bill Maher said it best last night on HBO. It was super great.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/105657.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="editline">Edited on Sat Apr-05-08 02:22 PM by 0007</div> <div class="medtext">Wish I could regurgitate the whole segment.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110109" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110109" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110109" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110109" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110111"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Finnfan</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=113465&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:19 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110109">Reply #14</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>15. I missed it. What did he say? nt</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 1:41 PM" title="Updated at 1:41 PM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/113465.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <br /></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110111" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110111" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110111" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110111" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110126"></a><span class="medtext"><b>realpolitik</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/realpolitik"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=108843"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=108843"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=108843"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=108843&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:27 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>16. The size repair the world needs</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/realpolitik"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 5:22 AM" title="Updated at 5:22 AM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/108843.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">Probably requires the near complete destruction of the modern corporatist economy.<br />Green can be done, but it means an entirely different world.<br />Quite a bit of that difference will seem like pain.<br /><br />It will probably mean a period of scarcity, in cases and places, severe scarcity.<br /></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110126" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110126" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110126" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110126" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110132"></a><span class="medtext"><b>flashl</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/flashl"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=205836"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=205836"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=205836&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:28 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>18. The economy base is bubbles, financial alchemy, shadow banking, questionable govt economic stats, </b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/transparent.gif" border="0" height="1" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">stratas (mixed economies), coupled with corporate welfare gone amok and sold to the American people as 'their' economy.<br /><br />In general, what's offered as an economy is not based on any proven model that benefits the majority. Therefore, any offering using sound governmental principles or models will not be effective. </div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110132" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110132" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110132" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110132" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110152"></a><span class="medtext"><b>fasttense</b></span> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=156104"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=156104"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=156104"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=156104&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:35 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>19. The US economy is just suffering the typical effects of Milton Friedman's</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/transparent.gif" border="0" height="1" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">"free market" or neoliberal economic policies. This loss of wages and jobs happens every time some idiot leader, be he dictator or quasi-dictator, decides to implement the anti-labor, pro-monopoly policies theorized by Milton and the Chicago School boys.<br /><br />Here's an excerpt on what happened to the Chilean economy thanks to Pinochet and Milton's boys.<br /><br />"After a deep recession caused by applying Monetarist shock-treatment in 1975 (the economy fell by 13%), it started to rebound. This is the source of claim of a Chilean "economic miracle." Friedman, for example, used 1976 as his base-line, so excluding the depression year of 1975 which his recommended shock treatment had deepened. Ironically, soon after Friedman proclaimed his "miracle" the bottom fell out of the economy and Chile's GDP fell 14% in 1982."<br /><br />"By 1988, the average real wage had returned to 1980 levels, but it was still well below 1970 levels. Moreover, in 1986, some 37 percent of the labor force worked in the informal sector, where wages were lower and benefits often non-existent. Many worked for minimum wage, which in 1988 provided only half of what an average family required to live decently -- and a fifth of the workers didn't even earn that . . . nearly half of Chileans lived in poverty."<br /><br />"Between 1970 and 1990, Chile's total GDP grew by a decidedly average 2% a year. The average growth in GDP was 1.5% per year between 1974 and 1982, which was lower than the average Latin American growth rate of 4.3% and lower than the 4.5% of Chile in the 1960's. For the 1981-90 period, it was just 1.84% a year. Hardly an economic miracle."<br /><br />"The "distribution of income in Chile in 1988, after a decade of free-market policies, was markedly regressive." Between 1978 and 1988 the richest 10% of Chileans increased their share of national income from 37 to 47%, while the next 30% saw their share shrink from 23 to 18%. The income share of the poorest fifth of the population dropped from 5 to 4 %. Overall, "wages stayed low even as the economy began to recover. Low wages were key to the celebrated 'miracle' recovery . . . The average wage . . . was 5 percent lower at the end of the decade than it had been in 1981 and almost 10 percent lower than the average 1970 wage." After 1982, "stagnant wages and the unequal distribution of income severely curtailed buying power for most Chileans, who would not recover 1970 consumption levels until 1989." (Note that Chile had another crash in 1982)<br /><br />The site sucks but the info they provide is valuable.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.anarkismo.net/index.php" target="_blank">http://www.anarkismo.net/index.php</a><br /><br /></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110152" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110152" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110152" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110152" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110158"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Finnfan</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=113465&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:38 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110152">Reply #19</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>20. Much of that info is covered in the book "The Shock Doctrine".</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 1:41 PM" title="Updated at 1:41 PM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/113465.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">I highly recommend it if you haven't read it.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110158" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110158" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110158" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110158" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110160"></a><span class="medtext"><b>fasttense</b></span> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=156104"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=156104"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=156104"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=156104&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:39 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110158">Reply #20</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>21. Yes, I've read it but you can't get it on line.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/transparent.gif" border="0" height="1" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">So, I get the numbers from sites where I can post a link.<br /><br />It was a great book. </div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110160" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110160" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110160" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110160" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110172"></a><span class="medtext"><b>JCMach1</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/JCMach1"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=105030"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=105030"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=105030"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=105030&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:44 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110152">Reply #19</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>23. Savor the irony... it may be predatory capitalism that makes the vast majority of the world equal</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/105030.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">i.e. slaves to the corporations...</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110172" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110172" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110172" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110172" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110359"></a><span class="medtext"><b>notesdev</b></span> (65 posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/notesdev"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=217900"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=217900"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=217900"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=217900&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 03:58 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110152">Reply #19</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>35. It wasn't a free market</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/transparent.gif" border="0" height="1" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">If you know how the Federal Reserve operates, then it is clear that there's nothing free about the market, it dances to the tune of that private (public only when it's advantageous to be so) organization's manipulations. Study the Depression - the Fed was the primary driver of that crisis, and it is the primary driver of this one.<br /><br />There is a distinct difference between capitalism - which really is the most efficient method available of fairly distributing goods and services - and corporatism, which is how things have really been run.<br /><br />So much of the economy has been driven by government subsidies being directed into the pocket of those who have powerful allies within that it's not really fair to label this system as capitalism. In our system, wealthy interests pay to alter the law to suit their desires; a true free market wants laws that are stable so that values and risks are reasonably predictable.<br /><br />And it extends further into political policy. Bring in 20-40 million low-skill and unskilled workers, that's a political decision; the only way the market can react to that is to drive wages down to accommodate the surplus labor pool. Bring in hundreds of thousands of skilled workers, and the same thing is going to happen higher on the economic ladder. Opening up 'free' trade with countries with no labor protections, no environmental protections, and so on is a political decision with consequences that were apparent to many (remember Ross Perot?) well ahead of time.<br /><br />All a free market does is balance supply and demand. When a free market is actually allowed to work, everyone does better.<br /><br />Letting the blame fall on markets simply gives the politicians a free pass on the fallout of a long train of corrupt and selfish political decisions.<br /><br /><br /></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110359" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110359" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110359" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110359" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110168"></a><span class="medtext"><b>OhioBlues</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/OhioBlues"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=157121"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=157121"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=157121"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=157121&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:42 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>22. Kick nt</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/OhioBlues"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 11:29 PM" title="Updated at 11:29 PM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/157121.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <br /></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110168" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110168" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110168" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110168" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110176"></a><span class="medtext"><b>lostnfound</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/lostnfound"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=131285"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=131285"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=131285"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=131285&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:48 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>24. The rulers of the world consider "open, HONEST dialogue" with the masses to be foolhardy &amp; dangerous</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/chomsky.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">That's why the airwaves are filled with meaningless tripe. The American experiment with open democracy supported by open debate was under attack for about 100 years and finally was ended around 1980.<br /><br />Okay, I'm feeling a little negative today. But less seriously, I do think that "open, HONEST dialogue" about the state of the economy would be considered a recipe for disaster by most of our rulers. Speaking about impending doom can create a run on the banks and drastic drop in remaining spending etc. -- a self-fulfilling prophecy. </div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110176" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110176" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110176" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110176" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110193"></a><span class="medtext"><b>tularetom</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=176741"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=176741"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=176741"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=176741&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 02:56 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>25. We have crumbling infrastructure and millions of idle workers</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/176741.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">Doesn't seem like rocket science to come up with a plan. Except you cannot power this plan with a program of tax cuts and eternal wars.<br /><br />So all that has to be done is:<br /><br />1. stop the war in Iraq<br />2. restore tax brackets to those which existed in the 70's.<br />3. undertake a massive public works improvement and repair program similar to WPA.<br /><br />and<br /><br />4. re-impose tariffs on imported goods to even the playing field for American workers (even if the material is imported by american corporations).<br /><br /></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110193" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110193" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110193" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110193" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110216"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Kip Humphrey</b></span> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=155248"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=155248"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=155248"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=155248&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 03:03 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>26. If you are not living well within your means (like below 60% of intake), you'd better get there by </b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/vote_rwb.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">this fall!</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110216" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110216" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110216" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110216" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110246"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Zynx</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Zynx"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=132385"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=132385"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=132385"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=132385&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 03:18 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>27. You explained a phenomenon that has happened about a thousand times around the world</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/wisconsin.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">in the last century. "This is a slow-motion disaster in the making because there are no jobs being created to replace the ones we are losing. There isn't even any mechanism for job creation currently in place. Our economy is the perfect storm. People are spending less due to lower wages and property values, higher prices, and job loss. Employers are dealing with the lower revenue by cutting jobs."<br /><br />This is how every recession looks. The fact you have gotten 10 recs for this is embarassing.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110246" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110246" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110246" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110246" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110259"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Finnfan</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=113465&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 03:25 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110246">Reply #27</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>30. So you're saying that there is nothing different about this recession?</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 1:41 PM" title="Updated at 1:41 PM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/113465.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">The fundamentals of the economy are the same, or similar to, the last two recessions? I think the data says otherwise. And yes, I've been an adult through the last several recessions so I remember what they look like.<br /><br />So, if you're optimistic, where will the jobs come from? How do we stop the spiral?</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110259" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110259" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110259" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110259" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110309"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Lydia Leftcoast</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=101602"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=101602"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=101602"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=101602&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 03:43 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110246">Reply #27</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>33. I'm with Finnfan here: This recession feels different</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/minnesota.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">Job losses are occurring with the same speed as during the Reagan recession of the early 1980s, but our underlying fundamentals are weaker. We have a larger deficit, a manufacturing base that's been siphoned off to other countries for nearly 30 years, and collapsing housing and credit markets.<br /><br />I'm noticing how desperately sellers of non-essentials are cutting prices and spamming me both by mail and e-mail. Arts organizations are BEGGING me to subscribe and contribute.<br /><br />The "Rust Belt" suffered a lot during the Reagan recession, but I feel that this country is going to be one big Rust Belt if current trends continue.<br /><br />Until someone has the courage to say, "End the war NOW and redirect those resources to rebuilding our country," we're doomed.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110309" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110309" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110309" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110309" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110686"></a><span class="medtext"><b>WinkyDink</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=172842"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=172842"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=172842"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=172842&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 05:29 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110246">Reply #27</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>42. "around the world" are much lower standards of living. You want to live like an Indonesian?</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/khephra1.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <br /></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110686" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110686" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110686" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110686" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111206"></a><span class="medtext"><b>nadinbrzezinski</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/nadinbrzezinski"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=127191"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=127191"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=127191"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=127191&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 08:15 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110246">Reply #27</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>47. The fundamentals of THIS recession are closer to 1929</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/nadinbrzezinski"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 12:50 AM" title="Updated at 12:50 AM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/cthulhu.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">than any other recession since oh 1929<br /><br />By the way, the IMF agrees with me on this one. Last week they even said it. This is the worst crisis in the US since the Great Depression.<br /><br />Been saying this for a couple of years, but to have the IMF issue a statement that sounded like something I wrote HERE on DU a year before<br />was eerie to say the least</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111206" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111206" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111206" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111206" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111673"></a><span class="medtext"><b>natrat</b></span> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/natrat"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=142558"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=142558"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=142558"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=142558&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 11:20 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110246">Reply #27</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>62. this is how every recession looks-tell me you are not that stupid</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/conyers.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">you don't recognize the extreme changes in our political system in the last few years? you don't see the acceleration in commodity prices and world populations? You don't see the total loss of domestic industries that could at one time be looked to for rebound on the other side of a downturn?---no i suppose you don't because 3 word sentences are about as in depth as you get on the issue , moron</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111673" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111673" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111673" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111673" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110268"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Turbineguy</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=132734"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=132734"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=132734"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=132734&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 03:28 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>31. On the bright side:</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/dontpanic.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">This only has 9 months left to run. 81 percent of Americans think the country is headed in the wrong direction. Democrats only need a 65 percent majority to win the election (I figure 10-13 percent to offset GOP election fraud and tampering).</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110268" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110268" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110268" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110268" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110271"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Finnfan</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=113465&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 03:29 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110268">Reply #31</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>32. I'm sorry, but I think that 9 months from now</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 1:41 PM" title="Updated at 1:41 PM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/113465.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">is about 4 years too late.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110271" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110271" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110271" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110271" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110349"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Turbineguy</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=132734"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=132734"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=132734"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=132734&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 03:53 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110271">Reply #32</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>34. Making the change 4 years ago</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/dontpanic.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">would have been better. Having had an honest election in 2000 even more so. The republicans have had a go and they screwed it up. I do not think it's neccesary to convince the "19 percenters" by destroying the country. Many of them still will not be convinced anyway.<br /><br />I find when it comes to Americans, linear thinking goes out the window. Drawing a line between two points does not mean the third point is inevitable.<br /><br />Never underestimate the ingenuity of Americans. </div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110349" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110349" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110349" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110349" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111536"></a><span class="medtext"><b>XemaSab</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/XemaSab"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=156299"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=156299"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=156299"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=156299&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 10:15 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110268">Reply #31</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>54. You think that electing a democrat will magically make the economy better?</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/156299.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext"> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/shrug.gif" alt=":shrug:" title=":shrug:" /><br /><br />I think we're up shit creek, no matter who gets elected.<br /><br />Granted, Obama might bring the paddle, but still... people are out of work, home values are collapsing, companies are outsorcing, downsizing, or bringing in cheap labor... our problems are not going to go away overnight.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111536" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111536" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111536" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111536" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111590"></a><span class="medtext"><b>nadinbrzezinski</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/nadinbrzezinski"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=127191"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=127191"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=127191"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=127191&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 10:42 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3111536">Reply #54</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>57. I hate to say it but a democrat will be better for my pocket book BUT</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/nadinbrzezinski"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 12:50 AM" title="Updated at 12:50 AM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/cthulhu.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">you knew that was coming, given the huge disappointment of 2006 the democrats will save us any longer is magical thinking. It will be up to us</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111590" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111590" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111590" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111590" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110405"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Autumn Colors</b></span> (634 posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=173451"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=173451"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=173451"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=173451&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 04:09 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>36. I did my little bit, wish it could be more</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/ivoted.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="editline">Edited on Sat Apr-05-08 04:10 PM by Autumn Colors</div> <div class="medtext">Since 2003, I've been self-employed. Luckily, my business grew to the point where I could not humanly do all of the work myself anymore. In 2007, I created 2 full-time jobs and 1 part-time job.<br /><br />I work in medical transcription and most of our industry is being outsourced by large companies to Indian med. students. I've cut expenses everywhere except wages and have cut my profit margin to make sure my 2 full-timers always make at least the minimum they told me they need to get by (but usually more than that). (My part-timer has a full-time government job but is doing this until I have enough work for her to do this full-time.)<br /><br />Pay is production-based, as it is throughout this industry. It's a struggle, but I'm hearing more and more from physicians who tried the Indian companies only to get fed up with the bad quality. Unfortunately, it looks like it will be technology that will make us dinosaurs, not the Indians, but we're hanging in there.<br /><br />Anyhow, it's one tiny thing I can feel good about in an ocean of daily bad news.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110405" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110405" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110405" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110405" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110421"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Finnfan</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=113465"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=113465&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 04:13 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110405">Reply #36</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>37. I wish you the best of continued luck.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td><td align="right"><a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Finnfan"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/journal_updated.gif" alt="Updated at 1:41 PM" title="Updated at 1:41 PM" border="0" /></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/personal/113465.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">I think one of the reasons that we're in this death spiral is that the sytems has been gamed so that stories like yours are the exception rather than the rule.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110421" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110421" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110421" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110421" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110473"></a><span class="medtext"><b>notesdev</b></span> (65 posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/notesdev"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=217900"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=217900"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=217900"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=217900&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 04:28 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110405">Reply #36</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>39. One thing in our favor</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/transparent.gif" border="0" height="1" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">is that Americans are still 15% more productive than our closest competitor. As the dollar drops, the cost-effectiveness of shipping jobs offshore and bringing in foreign labor also drops in proportion. As the US becomes relatively more competitive on price, our advantage in productivity and quality just might be the thing that gets the ball rolling again.<br /><br />The weakness of US economic culture is not in the production end; it's in the gluttonous overconsumption of the US consumer. That's a behavior that this depression will weed out, and fast. People who can't stop spending will soon find that they have no money left to buy what they need to survive.<br /></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110473" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110473" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110473" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110473" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110460"></a><span class="medtext"><b>quadriga</b></span> (269 posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=216196"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=216196"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=216196"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=216196&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 04:25 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>38. A major restructuring and revamping of the infrastructure is needed.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/crowmothernchild.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">This could be done in a manner that others are calling a "green revolution". The country's infrastructure is crap. I'll probably get flamed for saying this but, this restructuring should be done by <u>U.S. citizens</u> not illegals or contractors. </div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110460" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110460" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110460" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110460" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110619"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Turn CO Blue</b></span> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=155362"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=155362"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=155362"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=155362&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 05:12 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>40. Close to home here: 4 airlines shut down in the last week.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/gore.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">The small and medium-sized (low-cost) airlines are certainly in a death spiral due to the cost of fuel, too much capacity and low fares. Fares are still very low and haven't kept up with the cost of fuel burn it takes to carry an average 175 pound person across many miles, much less to afford decent wages and contracts and the leases on all their planes.<br /><br />Champion Air, Aloha, ATA and now Skybus...<br /><br />All those employees' stock value and their careers just gone POOF! in a matter of weeks (particularly Aloha and ATA) - and in one case a matter of hours. Some employees I knew of at ATA with 20+ years invested and they're now wiped out! And all those passengers? They're only going to get assistance from the other airlines for a couple of weeks - and then their tickets are worthless. The other carriers certainly can't take all those people for free - everybody is already hemorrhaging a million dollars a day or more.<br /><br />What about the UNCHECKED GREED of big oil and the refineries and effing OPEC - and the war profiteering, small-minded Republicans who didn't plan for $100 oil! Or did plan for it - maybe that's what they wanted, but were so fucking stupid they didn't understand that it would push many industries and hence all commerce to the point of shutting down. And BushCo who continues to enable and empower and enrich themselves personally off this unprecedented run of profits. How do those ninny heads think that merchandise, commodity and food get carried around in this country anyway - trucking (fuel-based) and rail and airlines (fuel-based).<br /><br />No wonder prices are so fucking HIGH! Good god - we're not gonna have tomatoes for awhile I can tell you! Some of the truckers at my husband's last job were being paid $1700 per day to make a run - and it was costing them $1500 in fuel, so they weren't clearing anything after maintenance and insurance. What a crock!<br /><br /><br />I joined the travel industry so that I could travel to see my family but also to see the world. I am so grateful for the opportunities I've had to go to Spain, Portugal, Germany, Mexico and London. And I've travelled to over 30 cities in the US.<br /><br />I am so anxious and frankly, sad. I've poured my heart and passion into this little airline as we've grown from only 19 planes to 60.<br /><br />Time to find some means of support - hopefully one that heals the earth this time.<br /></div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110619" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110619" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110619" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110619" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110683"></a><span class="medtext"><b>WinkyDink</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=172842"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=172842"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=172842"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=172842&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 05:28 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>41. What was that Nader said about the Gore-Bush equivalence? And he dares show his face.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/khephra1.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="editline">Edited on Sat Apr-05-08 05:31 PM by WinkyDink</div> <div class="medtext">Where I am, Bethlehem Steel is being transmogrified into a Sands Casino. Not much to produce and export there.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110683" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110683" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110683" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110683" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3110728"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Journalgrrl</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (230 posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Journalgrrl"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=213492"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=213492"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=213492"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=213492&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 05:41 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>43. Kick &amp; Rec</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/athena.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">I have seen it coming for a long time too, and unfortunately, I am a "doom&amp;gloom-er" thinking that things are going to get ALOT worse before better... and maybe not even in my lifetime. ...wilderness Survival anyone?<br /><br />I have gone from a 40 hour week job to working 2-3 part time jobs and freelancing on the eves &amp; weekends - and I STILL cannot put FOOD on the table for my kids!!! (single mom of 3, can't make more than $10 an hour...) My daughter has a disability that keeps me hopping between 3 different specialists, two of which are over 100 miles away from home..which takes away from my work-time. I myself am dealing with long term effects of spousal abuse and related health issues, so I am losing hours there too. I don't count as "unemployed" but I sure as hell am UNDER employed...<br /><br />My only recourse is to be resourceful: grow my own food, help from church and family, and work my ASS off when I can.<br /><br />What really chaps my hide is the Media and pundits are still saying..."are we in a recession?" DUH!<br />I guess when the depression really gets underway, they may wake up. When we have hundreds of thousands of people starving because they can't buy bread or other stapels, maybe then they'll wake up... or when the food-riots start and the country declares martial law, will the wake up call finally come for us all?<br /><br />sorry - feeling a bit dark &amp; bleak today as well...</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110728" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110728" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110728" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3110728" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111540"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Hydra</b></span> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Hydra"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=206238"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=206238"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=206238"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=206238&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 10:17 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110728">Reply #43</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>55. People like you and I are invisible</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/dragon2.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">I am also underemployed and taking care of a disabled relative. I've tried for years to get a job that pays what I'm qualified for and what we need, but I wind up having to spend time fighting with the state for the meager benefits they offer...and then am told that I'm double dipping by reading the fine print and trying to get the amount we should be allotted. That's almost another full time job in itself, but at least the taxman doesn't get to take a chunk when I manage to get us another 10 or 20 dollars, the way working does.<br /><br />You ask how they can be playing with the word "recession"...the fact is, unless it affects them, most people would prefer to live in the delusion that everything is perfect here in America.<br /><br />I look forward to the day when reality bites them all in the ass. Hard. </div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111540" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111540" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111540" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111540" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111185"></a><span class="medtext"><b>PATRICK</b></span> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://journals.democraticunderground.com/PATRICK"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_journal.gif" alt="Journal" title="Journal" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=105758"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=105758"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=105758"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=105758&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 08:06 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>45. The Doomsday List</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/edwards2008b.gif" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">Still have nukes enough, Cheney has enough power to still mix it with Iran, the richest are still the richest and still in power, the obscene joke of a world "news" service still pumps swill as do growing numbers of factories which import things we could easily produce here while burning the last dregs of the energy lifeline that is warming the planet into evolution ending climate shock.<br /><br />On the the 'world" front, the pleasant fiction created by humans for humans, the bulge of aging people on the planet will collide with an unsustainable social network looted by the worst of humans, plagues created by good and bad intentions, famines from bio-engineered or rather Enronized seed and food supply and water systems, diseases from drugs nearly planned to make resistant strains and cause fatal side effects(while leaking universally into the industrial polluted food chain. The coincidental modern plasticity of DNA making all life forms malleable vulnerable and wildly mutating overall because of lack of intelligence and the rule of greed. The utter waste of technology and finite energy interesting balanced by actually suicidal applications and the rare necessary forms needed(hopefully like the Biblical mustard seed) to someday rebuild a future of some sort.<br /><br />And war, brave war that added and kin to plague, starvation, and yes more chaotic overpopulation and loss of environment and energy and on and on, finds this crisis doomed generation overladen with loons, guns, absolute sh&amp;t for brains leadership that is anything but. War will insure all crises have momentarily engaging death agonies to vent fear and frustration and need.<br /><br />Take a breath, open a window to your chemical laden air and get to work. These are the "interesting times" that JFK considered a curse. You can effectively become the poisons, the brainless virus, the roadkill, or a human being by the wealth of choices forced upon us.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111185" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111185" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111185" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111185" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111269"></a><span class="medtext"><b>knitter4democracy</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=146464"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=146464"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=146464"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=146464&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 08:38 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>48. Tell this Michigander about it.</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/wallacegromit.jpg" border="0" height="48" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">Our state started our death spiral a couple of years ago. No one in power gave a crap. Our state is losing population at a fast rate, even faster than we're losing jobs. Our food banks are hurting, our shelters can't take in even half of the homeless on any given night, and we're dying up here. We have yet to have a solution work at all.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111269" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111269" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111269" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111269" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111350"></a><span class="medtext"><b>dawgman</b></span> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=118544"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=118544"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=118544"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=118544&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> </td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Sat Apr-05-08 08:58 PM<br /> Response to <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#3110023">Original message</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-subject" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td><!-- google_ad_section_start --><b>49. Death spiral</b><!-- google_ad_section_end --></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-message" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="1%"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/transparent.gif" border="0" height="1" width="48" /></td> <td width="99%"> <div class="medtext">maybe not but definitely in the downward turn of things. There will be changes. Wholesale changes. People will not be sheeple when the can't afford bread or the gas to get to work. At some point they will wake up and when they do true change will come.</div> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-bottom" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/dir.gif" height="8" width="12" /> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=alert&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111350" class="smallblack">Alert</a></td> <td class="smalltext" align="right" nowrap="nowrap"> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111350" class="smallblack">Printer Friendly</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111350" class="smallblack">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&amp;forum=389&amp;topic_id=3110023&amp;mesg_id=3111350" class="smallblack">Reply</a> | <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x3110023#top" class="smallblack">Top</a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="post-top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="smalltext" nowrap="nowrap"><a name="3111371"></a><span class="medtext"><b>Elspeth</b></span> <img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/donor.gif" alt="Donating Member" border="0" height="11" width="11" /> (1000+ posts) <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=send_mesg&amp;u_id=201267"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg.gif" alt="Click to send private message to this author" title="Click to send private message to this author" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&amp;u_id=201267"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/profile_small.gif" alt="Click to view this author's profile" title="Click to view this author's profile" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_buddy&amp;u_id=201267"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_buddy.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your buddy list" title="Click to add this author to your buddy list" border="0" height="16" width="20" /></a> <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&amp;iid=201267&amp;level=three"><img src="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/mesg_add_ignore.gif" alt="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" title="Click to add this author to your Ignore list" border="0" height="16" width