ICOC Blogspot

"Empire City" Church's first service in NYC

2008-09-24T14:32:00.005-04:00

40 visitors? = there's a sucker born every minute.

Back in 1994, I attended my first church service of the NYC Church of Christ. I was 19 years and ready to make a change not only in my life, but to change the world as well. That service was actually a performance of Upside Down. Remember that play? People from all over the Northeast and beyond had come to see that show.

I remember checking out my second church service at a hotel near my parent's place just a few states away. There were at least 3 services going on in this hotel, and the one I ended up at had some people who had been on wheelchairs lying in the back, wailing. I learned that I had ended up at some Pentecostal service - not the ICC. Not that I could honestly tell that much of a difference, except for the wailing.

When I finally figured out how to recognize an ICC service, I found they were more like the ones pictured in the link at the Empire ICC city site.

Pretty bland - a conference room, mediocre singers, a young man who thinks more highly of himself than he'd ever admit and a soft pseudo-humble expression on his face when people approach him.

If you look at the front row, you'll see the old master, Kip, with his overgrown mullet. He still thinks he's going to change the world with that humble little service in some random NYC hotel.

All I know is that people keep giving him money.

When will you all ever learn? Took me a while til I finally did. It doesn't matter how cognitively intelligent you are - it's about what grabs your emotions. And he knows how to do it.

When you want to change the world, better watch out for those who want to change - and shortchange - you.

Steve Johnson vs. Kip McKean

2008-09-09T11:01:00.001-04:00

Sorry to take so long to post this, but this is so hilarious. Steve Johnson has split from Kip and the SODM (Portland AKA Sold Out Discipling Movement or SODOM, I mean, SODM)!!

Linkie

IMO they are both complete asses. And clearly I'm not the only one who thinks so.

A funny thing happened on my way

2008-02-01T11:11:00.000-05:00

... to my liberal arts degree

http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2008/02/funny-thing-happened-on-my-way-to-my.html

I've read lots of ex-christian stories but this one is hilarious. The guy, an atheist, gets elected president of his college's Baptist club!!! Too funny...

Tom Beam Leaves $11 Million Endowment for ICOC Missions

2007-12-13T13:11:00.000-05:00

$11 Million to spread the love!

Tom Beam was, apparently, a seat belt manufacturer. He attributed his company's success to "Christian values and its employees."

I can only take comfort in the fact that somewhere out there, Kip is weeping.

Sigh / Vomit.

Say it Bro!

2007-11-29T15:43:00.000-05:00

From my fave 'bro' Pope:

Wow. Another "new" movement? Seriously, what kind of rickety old incompetent god do these people worship that he'd send them back to the city that kicked their asses? "This time it's gonna stick!" so sayeth the Lord. Even the local cult knows better than to have anything to do with Kip. At least Jesus had enough self respect to say something about dust, feet and wiping. Anyone who'd have something to do with Kip at this point is a moron. It seems that Kip has to go to smaller and smaller towns to find someone dumb enough to believe his hype. I have no idea who this DJ guy is, but he is obviously the result of much barrel scraping.

Kip's new "Empire City International Christian Church"... Wha?

2007-11-27T00:11:00.000-05:00

I don't know how Kip came up with this idiotic name for his new NYC church planting. It sounds like a name some confused tourist picked up. And I love the pic of the douches that are now leading this new "movement" - DJ & Kacie!

DJ & Kacie pictured atop the Empire State Building!

BTW, DJ and Kacie want you to contact them...

Please, if you are interested, give Kacie and me a call at 740-334-2396 or email me at dj@caicc.net. And to God be all the glory He wants and so deserves!

Mwah hah. Just in time. Following the ICOC had gotten totally boring...

Thread
DJ's article

Songs of Praise (with Subtitles)

2007-11-12T22:38:00.000-05:00

This beautiful music makes me want to go back to church this Thanksgiving.

Boohoo!!!

2007-10-27T14:29:00.000-04:00

Mike Taliaferro tears his garments over the fact that the pseudo-ICOC has no official web site. But mommy ... the Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Methodists, not to mention every other organization out there has a free website !

Sweetie, no amount of official web site is going to offset the 1,000,000,000's of web pages of testimonials that say you're a cult leader! Now go play with your toys. All 70% of them.

http://www.icochotnews.com/?q=node/62

(Discussion here and here)

ICOC on Wikipedia

2007-10-07T09:24:00.001-04:00

A simmering battle for control of the ICOC article on Wikipedia...

For the past year, there has been some rather vitriolic editing of the
Wikipedia article on the ICOC. On the ICOC side, a current member (and rather poor writer) from Europe, "Transylvanian Karl," (AKA Tranny K) displays those OCD control issues of Bible Talk leaders from back in the day (or not so back in the day). If you click the "Discussion" tab at the top of the article, you can access the Tranny's recent arguments in favor of his long-winded, tyrannical lists of churches and other edits. Those opposing him range from your typical not-so-anonymous ICC DF'ers to dedicated Wikipedia regulars who, in trying to bring the article to standard, had no idea what they were in for.

The version of the Wiki article so aggressively thrown up against the wall since 2006 by Tranny, was recently replaced (Aug 21 07) by a more impartial version written by "Xiaphias" - and now Tranny's accusing him of vandalism (although Tranny himself hijacked the article 1 year ago).

X. has requested mediation. Now THAT'S going to be interesting.

Check out the "History" tab to see various versions of article over the past year. (Wikipedia has a nice feature where you can also look at past versions of the discussion/talk page). Or see specific versions below.

Aug 21 2007 version by Xiaphias. Scroll down for the actual article.

How to become a cult leader

2007-03-16T14:30:00.000-04:00

Thanks Splash90 for the link...

----------------------

This video is AMAZING. It's like an old bad cheap 60s 'educational' film -- and it's hilarious. (after the one slightly gross part at the beginning).

There were soooo many parts of this video that were JUST like my experiences in the ICOC. Anybody who doubts that the ICOC is a cult just needs to watch this. If this doesn't convince them/you - nothing will!!!!

Video: How To Become A Cult Leader - A Real Video clip. Following the film’s expose of a fictional cult group called Emerge, it will vividly explain with relentlessly black humor how cults enslave and ensnare people through the most basic and the mundane of human existence.

Exercise

2007-02-28T14:18:00.000-05:00

An innocent discussion on health and exercise mentions a certain former WML and American Idol aspirant's boob job while working for the church, along with the usual rant about never having enough time to work out or do anything for your health while in the ICOC... but wasn't McKean a big "jock"? I guess only ministry people can take care of themselves, including their boob size!!

(also mentions the only weight-loss program that's ever worked for me, and we're not talking about Weigh Down...)

OK, now Kip's MOVING to LA.

2006-12-19T13:21:00.000-05:00

I agree ttk: "Time to pop the popcorn!"

per his sermon......leaving Steve in charge. Taking the Gonzalez(older and younger), DJ Comisford for now and then DJ will be going to NYC later in year. Taking Bordeleis(sp) and Underhills as shepherds.

Also sending teams to Brisbane and London in 2007.

ttk

Plus additional rumors on why Kip may have put Steve Johnson in charge of Portland.

just wondering....

I just read the DT letter and it refers to him without using his name..but being the only brother still with kipper. My personal opinion of sj is that he just went with kip to ease his conscience of the guilt. I know he was also really close to DA who just spoke against kipper. It makes me wonder what is going on behind the scenes with him. Is DA trying to talk some sense into him? Is it now just a matter of job security? or does he still believe it 100% and will die with the kipster? It would be interesting to see how it played out if even he turned away.

Ah, right. Kip's new LA church.

2006-10-19T14:50:00.000-04:00

Posted by Jim_P59. A call to protest ... but isn't that what Kip AKA I'm-the-Martin-Luther-King-of-Christianity, wants?

---
Finally de-lurking after GUEST-ing all these months, (BTW, I'm previously a member of the West Region---now out, thankfully...)

Just a thought...

In two days, Kip will be inaugurating his new...

"LOS ANGELES INTERNATIONAL CHRISTIAN CHURCH"

at the [snipped - see post link for details]

Speaking as an ex-member, I think Kip's got a lot of balls coming back here---seeing how I and thousands of others spent over a decade in debt.

Why?

Well, this was SUPPOSEDLY to "evangelize the world", and instead it went for things like Kip's kids top-of-the-line education---

--- the most expensive private school k-thru-12 X 3 kids

--- 2 4-year tuitions at Harvard

---- 4-year tuition to Stanford.

---- private tennis lessons, and air travel to countless out-of-town tournaments.

All of that totals OVER $1 MILLION DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!!!!

But that was okay-----Kip said---to blow church donations on that, because Kip's kids were going to lead the movement in the next generation (although how their "ministry future" justified the ultra-expensive tennis obsession for all three kids, I've never understood).

But no... NOW, all three spoiled brats have left "the ministry", and no longer practice any religion of any kind.

Oh, and one just got knocked up, and had a shotgun wedding.

Well, that was money well spent... NOT!!!

The Book of Timothy renders an opinion on any person whose grown kids turn out this way---

THAT PERSON AND HIS WIFE ARE NOT FIT FOR THE MINISTRY!!!!!!!!!

BE THERE, OR BE SQUARE!!!!

LA ICOC Publicly Marks Kip McKean

2006-10-19T12:06:00.000-04:00

Posted by WildJen. So what's next, Kip marks the LA ICOC?

http://www.laicc.net/content/churchletter.htm

'bout damn time.

Unity Plan - Over 70% of original ICOC unites

2006-09-19T22:41:00.000-04:00

For those of you who still give crap about all this, Disciples Today reported an updated list, which shows 70% of members from all the churches in the former-ICOCland are now officially a part of pseudo-ICOCland. Except Portland, of course. I love the title of this thread: The List, The List (again)

From Disciples Today:

"Bringing the total to 324, an additional 6 churches are the latest committing to the Plan for United Cooperation. This brings the total to over 70% of the disciples listed in our Church Locator. New to the list are 6 churches from Ghana, Jamaica, South Africa, Quebec and Idaho and Missouri in the US. See the list of committed churches below. Several other churches have announced their agreement in principle with the Unity Proposal but not wishing to commit at this time. Others are still considering it and others have decided not to sign..."

Here's a post that lists the pro-Kipper churches.

Olivia McKean Marries - Outside the church

2006-09-19T20:46:00.000-04:00

Ooooold news, but in case you cared, here's a link to the thread.
She married a tall Finnish guy - got married in Finland and now she's living there... far, far away from Portland. Good for her.

The rich "relatives" paying Mckean kids' Harvard tuition

2006-05-21T21:53:00.000-04:00

Posted by WildJen. The Stanbeck book description and review can be seen here.

As per another thread......here is a footnote from Foster Stanback's book INTO ALL NATIONS discussing who the "rich relatives" were......

Page 119 - footnote 21:

"The bill for the children's Ivy-League grooming ran into tens of thousands of dollars, which McKean solicited from wealthy members of the church. Although various individuals provided such support, some began to feel a considerable degree of cognitive dissonance at the idea of aiding McKean's children without giving equal consideration to other worthy candidates. In such cases McKean did not hesitate to challenge them to develop the conviction that helping his family was part of their God-given role. When his youngest son began struggling spiritually at his private school where he had no Christian friends, McKean solicited funds from a wealthy family to pay for a scholarship ($10,000 of a total of $16,000 tuition bill) so that another Christian teenager could attend the school as well. They boy's parents were asked to move an hour north to an affluent neighborhood in W. Los Angeles close to the school. The church hired the boy's mother as a ministry "intern" to help the family afford the increased living expenses. McKean regularly approached his wealthy patrons in the church for donations of thousands of dollars to cover tennis-related expenses, such as lessons, equipment, tournament fees, and travel costs. The children's Harvard tuition was pad for by a dot-com entrepreneur who struck it rich during the internet boom of the late 1990s."

Kip's new treasure chest

2006-05-12T19:44:00.000-04:00

Gotta love this new set of idealistic, young Kip-followers on Myspace groups.

ICC releases churches agreeing with "Unity Proposal"

2006-04-17T14:42:00.000-04:00

From Reveal: What's New

The ICC appointed 9 leaders as a subcommittee at the 2005 International Leadership Conference in Seattle to gather input for greater cooperation and unity within the ICC.

On March 11th, 2006, a subcommittee of leaders (namely: Mike Fontenot, (Elder/Evangelist, Hampton Roads, VA), Scott Green, (Evangelist, Seattle, WA), Philip Lam, (Evangelist, Hong Kong, China), John Louis, (Evangelist, Singapore), Sam Powell, (Elder/Evangelist, New York, NY}, Steve Staten, (Evangelist/Teacher, Chicago, IL), Mike Taliaferro, (Evangelist, San Antonio, TX), Bruce Williams, (Evangelist, Los Angeles, CA), and Andy Fleming, (Middle East Missions Evangelist/Teacher, LA, CA)) released a "Unity Proposal" (this was circulated to leaders on February 20th, 2006 as a draft).

Notable is that the ICC has tried to define something akin to a creed (at least a statement of common belief and organizational purpose). The document is roughly divided into: Introduction, Common Beliefs, Course Corrections (i.e., what needs to be done, or changes needed to be made, at this point), and Conclusion. The proposal suggests that churches would benefit from a greater independence and association, and "stay connected" to other churches through geographic regional administrators or representatives.

Subsequently, Disciples Today, an ICC website, is publishing a list various churches who are in agreement with this Unity Proposal.

An additional document, "Questions and Answers" to the Unity Proposal, was also released.

REVEAL has no official comment at this point in time in regard to the Unity Proposal.

Jenny Lynch, Gloria Keeney, and Rennie McGale, all long time members and former leaders in the ICC took some time to document the story of how Kip became the lead evangelist of the Portland Church of Christ. (Requires Adobe Acrobat reader.)

Letter from a Leader (2003)

2006-04-17T14:23:00.000-04:00

This is quite an old letter but it still applies today. See also the insightful reply below the letter.

Letter posted by RoseGvr.
Recent response (4/2006) by Chava123

As background in case you don't know me - I was baptized in XXX in
l9XX, moved to XXX on the mission team in XX, worked as a XXXX for XXX, then went into the ministry at XX years old. My husband and I married in XX, and we moved wherever we were asked (more times than I can count), and sold everything to move Overseas for XX years before returning to the U.S. and coming to back to U.S.

We resigned from the ministry after over many years. I felt so much pressure to produce numbers, look a certain way, dress a certain way, have a beautiful home, make the stage at church beautiful, have beautiful people singing on stage, etc. - in short, a lot of emphasis on all the wrong things, but I didn't realize it at the time.

Having been in the ministry for a long time, and now having worked in
secular jobs for over XX years, I feel I have a unique perspective. I had no idea while I was in the ministry how out of touch I was with what "real" or "normal" (for lack of a better word) lives were.

I don't think anyone who has been in the ministry for years, especially if they went into the ministry straight out of college and never worked, can really grasp this until you've experienced it. I cannot emphasize enough to not underestimate how difficult it is to change the way you have thought when you have been in the ministry for years & years.

I hadn't taught in the Sunday school program since l983, although I had counselled (and corrected and rebuked) people on their attitudes about teaching. I had no idea what it was like when Wednesday night classes ran late, and what it was like to try to pick up the pieces of 2 tired children on Thursday morning at 6:45 trying to get them to school.

After only my first week working at the Medical Center as a XX for 12 hour shifts, the realization hit me how demanding I had thought my schedule was when I was on staff - now every day was much more intense than that staff meeting Tuesday as I went to work, tried to cook dinner before I left in the morning, arranged childcare for my children, etc. I was used to always being right, always having my opinion be the right one, telling people what to do all day long, and thinking I always knew better.

After resigning, it was the best thing that ever happened to us to stay where we had led (not go somewhere else, and certainly not to go somewhere else and accept another ministry job! that certainly wouldn't fit the definition of resignation) and learn the MANY lessons that we needed to learn. It was humbling and difficult to be on the other side of the pulpit, but you get a different, and very valuable view from there.

It's hard to explain the mindset that occurs when you have been in the
ministry for a long time. I really thought that being in the ministry was the only thing worth doing, that only the "best" people could do it, and so I looked down on everyone else for not being "sharp" enough to be in the ministry.

I was used to always being right, making judgements about big, little and totally unimportant things and expecting the people around me to do things my way, always having people help me with my responsibilities in life, being able to delegate anything I didn't want to do, having babysitters always readily available, using people to get my goals accomplished and make me look good (although at the time I thought it was sincere and best for them), etc. The pride and arrogance were overwhelming.

It has taken years to understand that no one else in the church has this carte blanche lifestyle. (We could sure use some of those babysitters now!!)

Recently, a couple we are close to came to us asking for a short term loan to be able to buy their child glasses. The husband has a full time job and a masters degree and the wife works part time. It hit me this is how most of the middle class in the United States lives - one thing goes wrong (a broken transmission, needing new glasses, an unexpected medical bill) and you are unable to meet your financial obligations. When you're in the ministry, all of your needs are met: medical insurance (even co-pays), mileage allowances for travel, expense account allowances for housing and entertainment, and so you are shielded from this kind of financial pressure.

So we asked people to be sacrificial, when really we weren't experiencing any real kind of financial sacrifice ourselves, as all of our needs were always met.

Myself, as well as all of the "old-timers" who have been in the ministry for years, have built a crumbling mess. It has not been easy to "fix" me (especially my thinking) and even after 4 years out of the ministry, I'm still not "fixed" because I have been trained in elitism, arrogance, harshness, judgementalism, and pride.

I am extremely concerned about the rushing stampede to hire Sam Laing to come to Athens. It is obvious the many strengths that Sam and Geri have to offer - their marriage, family, counselling ability, etc. But, from my viewpoint after having been in the ministry for over 1/3 of my life, having had 32 years in the ministry is not a plus, but a serious minus.

I have nothing against Sam & Geri Laing, but I have seen the mindset, priviledges, lifestyle and thought process that a leader on his "level" or "tier" in the ICOC system has been steeped in. I also believe many of these mindsets will not even be obvious to Sam for a long time, because we have been thoroughly indoctrinated in that way of thinking.

I believe that Sam is sincere in wanting to repent and that the Triangle church in many ways wasn't as oppressive or controlling as some of the ICOC churches have been, yet it will take time, and many painful conversations, to learn a new way of thinking and dealing with people. Leaving a church after resigning to come somewhere else without staying and learning the lessons there is a red flag to me too. I don't even think it is possible to know what those lessons might even be except with the passing of time.

I haven't seen any evidence of repentance, or even openness, about finances or leaders lifestyles. And although it hasn't been said, I wonder if this rush to hire the Laings has a lot to do with when their severance package expires. I don't want the church to make any huge decisions rashly and without everyone feeling great about the decisions, especially because of money issues.

---
As someone stated above the identity of the person was not carefully concealed. I knew eactly who it was after reading the first paragraph. If you were in the Athens church there is only one person who this could be.

While her humility seems genuine and I agree with a lot of what she says I think you have to look at the actions of the person. This WML is acting as if she had a major revelation and is truly humbled and sorry for her actions. But you have to look at her actions now.

Many people in the church here have a lot of feelings about her and her husband because while other leaders stood and and apoligized to the entire congragation, they did not. They left the church and many people here believe they owe them an apology. True they were not in the ministry at the time, but they were for years. For years they had been part of the emotional abuse that went on in the church. Often they were the ones that were being abusive. They never apoligized. I worked under her for years and was victim to her abuse. I have seen her several times since she has left the church and never once has she offered an apology or expressed any regret.

So while the letter sounds nice. I would still say she doesn't get it. She has no idea. It's not enough to write an anonymous letter to a website and expect that to make it all right.

The Schedule from Hell, er, like Jesus' - Sincamper.com

2006-02-24T17:27:00.000-05:00

The best ICOC cartoonist by far, SinCamper, has revised his web site at www.sincamper.com. And OMG this one is f*g HILARIOUS..................

New Book on the ICOC

2006-02-24T16:07:00.000-05:00

Awesome Families: The Promise of Healing Relationships in the International Churches of Christ

Kathleen Jenkins, an associate professor of Sociology at William & Mary wrote and conducted research for this book while her family members were part of the ICOC. Hilarious chapter title: "It's Like Free Counseling all the Time." Reminds me of the book some of us wanted to write - "It changed my life - Again!!!!" Even better is the final chapter: "The Kingdom that Promised Too Much." Too true.

Jenkins' book can be purchased at Rutgers Press or Amazon.

From Rutgers Press web site
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Description:
Denounced by some as a dangerous cult and lauded by others as a miraculous faith community, the International Churches of Christ was a conservative evangelical Christian movement that grew rapidly in the 1980s and 1990s.

Among its followers, promises to heal family relationships were central to the group's appeal. Members credit the church for helping them develop so-called "awesome families"-successful marriages and satisfying relationships with children, family of origin, and new church "brothers and sisters." The church engaged an elaborate array of services, including round-the-clock counseling, childcare, and Christian dating networks-all of which were said to lead to fulfilling relationships and exciting sex lives. Before the unified movement's demise in 2003-2004, the lure of blissful family-life led more than 100,000 individuals worldwide to be baptized into the church.

In Awesome Families, Kathleen Jenkins draws on four years of ethnographic research to explain how and why so many individuals-primarily from middle- to upper-middle-class backgrounds-were attracted to this religious group that was founded on principles of enforced community, explicit authoritative relationships, and therapeutic ideals. Weaving classical and contemporary social theory, she argues that members were commonly attracted to the structure and practice of family relationships advocated by the church, especially in the context of contemporary society where gender roles and family responsibilities are often ambiguous.

Tracing the rise and fall of this fast-growing religious movement, this timely study adds to our understanding of modern society and offers insight to the difficulties that revivalist movements have in sustaining growth.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Table of Contents:
Contents
Acknowledgments
Introduction: "It's Like Free Counseling all the Time"
Chapter One: Sacred Counsel: "Ambassadors for God"
Chapter Two: An Unsinkable Raft in a Foreboding Divorce Culture
Chapter Three: Collective Performances of Healing
Chapter Four: In With the Old and the New
Chapter Five: Awesome Kids
Chapter Six: Gendered Brothers and Sisters for the Kingdom
Chapter Seven: The Kingdom that Promised Too Much
Notes
Bibliography
Index

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Praise for Awesome Families
"A masterful work. This book is a must-read. It artfully weaves engaging ethnography with social theory to take the reader on a learning adventure. Through this study of family life, gender relations, and culture in a fast-rising and then falling 'therapeutic religious movement,' we learn about life in the modern world. Given that the conditions that led to this movement's appeal and growth remain, similar groups will continue to appear. As they do, we will want to turn to Awesome Families to understand their meaning."-Michael O. Emerson, author of Divided by Faith: Evangelical Religion and the Problem of Race in America

The Story Behind Kip's Take-Over of Portland

2006-02-24T15:51:00.000-05:00

See the story behind Kip's takeover of Portland. PDF document at www.icocnews.com, written and signed by insiders.

Approaching the 3rd Anniversary of HKL

2006-01-27T13:47:00.000-05:00

All, join hands in prayer...

Scientology

2006-01-19T16:11:00.001-05:00

There are some crazy stories on the internet of experiences by Scientology members that remind me of the ICOC, too.

Posted on ICC DF by Water00boy.

Scientology vs. ICOC: As if there were any doubt, this article regarding Tom Cruise and his participation in Scientology rings unervingly close to certain practices foisted upon members by the good ol' ICOC.