<?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8'?><?xml-stylesheet href="http://www.blogger.com/styles/atom.css" type="text/css"?><feed xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom' xmlns:openSearch='http://a9.com/-/spec/opensearchrss/1.0/' xmlns:georss='http://www.georss.org/georss'><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360</id><updated>2009-11-13T17:04:15.790-05:00</updated><title type='text'>Bais Avraham</title><subtitle type='html'>(The Blog Formerly Known as Sfas Ha-Nachal)</subtitle><link rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#feed' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/posts/default'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/'/><link rel='hub' href='http://pubsubhubbub.appspot.com/'/><link rel='next' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default?start-index=26&amp;max-results=25'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email></author><generator version='7.00' uri='http://www.blogger.com'>Blogger</generator><openSearch:totalResults>34</openSearch:totalResults><openSearch:startIndex>1</openSearch:startIndex><openSearch:itemsPerPage>25</openSearch:itemsPerPage><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-6008849596831037710</id><published>2009-11-13T15:22:00.003-05:00</published><updated>2009-11-13T16:06:36.206-05:00</updated><title type='text'>Sichos ha-Ran (Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom): Commentary to Simon 1</title><content type='html'>I am currently writing a commentary to Rabbi Nachman of Breslov's Sichos ha-Ran, known is English as Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom.&amp;nbsp; &lt;a href="http://www.breslov.com/coreh/sichot_haran.htm"&gt;See here for the text of Sichos ha-Ran online&lt;/a&gt;.&amp;nbsp; The Sefer is available &lt;a href="http://www.breslov.org/bookshelf/wisdom/"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; in English translation by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan from Breslov Research Institute.&amp;nbsp; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Once a week or so, I will post translations and excerpts from my commentary.Please note that all of these postings are of copyrighted materials.&amp;nbsp; Please ascribe attribution where appropriate.&amp;nbsp; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.breslov.com/coreh/sichot_haran.htm"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;And now for the first Simon of Sefer Bais Avraham al Sichos ha-Ran:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Bais Avraham to Simon 1&lt;/b&gt; - &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Rebbe opens with a quote from Dovid ha-Melech (Tehillim 135:5): כִּי אֲנִי יָדַעְתִּי&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; כִּי־גָדוֹל יְהֹוָה וַאֲדֹנֵינוּ מִכָּל־אֱלֹהִים, &lt;i&gt;For I know that HaShem is great, and that our Lord is above all gods&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The immediate &lt;i&gt;kasha &lt;/i&gt;here is that the Rebbe has favored this statement of Dovid ha-Melech&amp;nbsp; over what appears to be a perfectly acceptable and similar statement in the Torah itself!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;After hearing of the salvation of the Jewish people at the Yam Suf,&amp;nbsp; Yisro exclaims (Shemos 18:11): &amp;nbsp;עַתָּה&amp;nbsp; יָדַעְתִּי כִּי־גָדוֹל יְי מִכָּל־הָאֱלֹהִים כִּי בַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר זָדוּ עֲלֵיהֶם , &lt;i&gt;Now I know that HaShem is greater than all gods, for in the matter that they conspired...!&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Why did the Rebbe overlook Yisro’s statement in favor of that of Dovid ha-Melech?&amp;nbsp; To answer this question, we must look deeper into the statement of Yisro: עַתָּה&amp;nbsp; יָדַעְתִּי כִּי־גָדוֹל יְי מִכָּל־הָאֱלֹהִים כִּי בַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר זָדוּ עֲלֵיהֶם. &lt;i&gt;Now I know that HASHEM is greater than all gods, for in the matter that they conspired...!&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Rashi explains that Yisro had known of HaShem before the exodus of the Jews from Egypt.&amp;nbsp; However, following the Exodus he became convinced that HaShem was greater than all of the gods.&amp;nbsp; What convinced Yisro that HaShem was the greatest? According to the understanding of Targum Onkeles, Yisro recognized in the events at the Yam Suf that HaShem not only punished the Egyptians&lt;i&gt; midda keneged midda&lt;/i&gt; for what they had actually done to the Jews, but even punished the Egyptians for plans conspired yet not actually carried out against the Jews!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;How could Yisro know what plans the Egyptians conspired yet failed to execute? The Gemora, Sotah 11a, tells us that Yisro had formerly been an advisor ( along with Iyuv and Bilaam) to Paroh and was consulted regarding the persecution of the Jews.&amp;nbsp; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thus, when Yisro declared&amp;nbsp;עַתָּה&amp;nbsp; יָדַעְתִּי , &lt;i&gt;Now I know&lt;/i&gt;..., he was referring to a type of&amp;nbsp; knowledge shared by a very small group of people.&amp;nbsp; Four people to be exact: Yisro, Paroh, Iyuv, and Bilaam. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Dovid HaMelech, however, phrases his praise of HaShem differently, stating אֲנִי יָדַעְתִּי, &lt;i&gt;I, I, know...&lt;/i&gt;&amp;nbsp; Dovid ha-Melech is thus describing a knowledge of HaShem that is different than that described by Yisro.&amp;nbsp; Dovid is specifyi"ng that this is a knowledge that is held and understood only by himself and none other.&amp;nbsp; As the Rebbe writes: .כי אני ידעתי - אני ידעתי דיקא...&amp;nbsp; Furthermore, the Rebbe writes that this is a “knowledge” that every individual could have.&amp;nbsp; Yet, it is a knowledge that is beyond words, that cannot be communicated.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;We see that&lt;i&gt; Daas Yisro&lt;/i&gt; - the knowledge of Yisro - is a knowledge of G-D that is factual and informational.&amp;nbsp; However, it is not knowledge &lt;i&gt;of &lt;/i&gt;G-d.&amp;nbsp; Rather, &lt;i&gt;Daas Yisro&lt;/i&gt; is factual knowledge &lt;i&gt;about &lt;/i&gt;G-d.&amp;nbsp; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, &lt;i&gt;Daas Dovid&lt;/i&gt; - the knowledge of Dovid - is a knowledge of G-d that is beyond mere facts &lt;i&gt;about&lt;/i&gt; G-d.&amp;nbsp; It is a vision, an experience &lt;i&gt;of &lt;/i&gt;G-d that is beyond words, beyond communication.&amp;nbsp; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Since it is knowledge that cannot be communicated, it is knowledge that cannot, by definition, be taught from one person to another.&amp;nbsp; Rather, &lt;i&gt;Daas Dovid&lt;/i&gt; must be cultivated within each person by himself.&amp;nbsp; This knowledge, &lt;i&gt;Daas Dovid,&lt;/i&gt; is knowledge that comes about only as a product of embracing Emunah .&amp;nbsp; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In explaining this statement of Dovid, the Rebbe is teaching us that intellectual knowledge of G-d, &lt;i&gt;Daas Yisro&lt;/i&gt;, is ultimately knowledge of facts &lt;i&gt;about &lt;/i&gt;G-d.&amp;nbsp; It is &lt;i&gt;not &lt;/i&gt;knowledge &lt;i&gt;of &lt;/i&gt;G-d himself. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;nbsp;The great mistake of the philosophers and academic theologians who try to understand G-d rationally or intellectually is that their conlclusions ultimately tell them nothing about G-d Himself.&amp;nbsp; Rather, the material of all their inquiries and investigations is only in the realm of facts &lt;i&gt;about &lt;/i&gt;G-d.&amp;nbsp; Yet nothing of their questions or conclusions is relevant to understanding even the slightest about G-d Himself. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, we see from the example of Yisro that intellectual knowledge of mere facts &lt;i&gt;about &lt;/i&gt;G-d can assist us in making positive decisions that affect our relationship with G-d.&amp;nbsp; However, this is only a lower level of knowledge.&amp;nbsp; This level pales in contrast to true knowledge of HaShem, &lt;i&gt;Daas Dovid&lt;/i&gt;, which is the product of &lt;i&gt;emunah&lt;/i&gt;, faith, rather than intellectual or philosophical introspection.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; It is only by &lt;i&gt;emunah &lt;/i&gt;that we come to truly know HaShem and to come to true religious knowledge and understanding.&amp;nbsp; Only by faith do we come to have true religious and godly experiences.&amp;nbsp; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is what is meant by the Rebbe’s closing remarks in this paragraph - "נודע ב'ערים בעלע" - 'כל חד לפום&amp;nbsp; מה דמשער בלבה. &lt;i&gt;Daas Yisro&lt;/i&gt;, intellectual brain-based knowledge of HaShem, can bring us to the gates of emunah, the gates of the heart.&amp;nbsp; However, every individual must make the decision to step forward into the world of &lt;i&gt;emunah&lt;/i&gt;, the world of faith.&amp;nbsp; It is only then that one can come to actually know and experience HaShem.&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-6008849596831037710?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/6008849596831037710/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=6008849596831037710&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/6008849596831037710'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/6008849596831037710'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2009/11/sichos-ha.html' title='Sichos ha-Ran (Rabbi Nachman&apos;s Wisdom): Commentary to Simon 1'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-7799799916317346404</id><published>2009-11-12T01:59:00.000-05:00</published><updated>2009-11-12T01:59:15.983-05:00</updated><title type='text'>Ok - I'm Back</title><content type='html'>Well, it has been over a year... a BIG long year.&amp;nbsp; The Bloomenstiel family is now living in a new city, living a new life, and , B"H loving it.&amp;nbsp;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am going to give this Blog project another go now that I have real time to do it and that I know am much more computer proficient than a year ago.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As part of this new attempt, absent my friend and student Dovi Meisel's assistance, I have decided to re-brand this site as BaisAvraham.com - after the first volume of my forthcoming sefer.&amp;nbsp; Please let me know what you think and if you have any suggestions as to how to do things better. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- Thanks -&lt;br /&gt;Avi Bloomentstiel&amp;nbsp;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-7799799916317346404?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/7799799916317346404/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=7799799916317346404&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/7799799916317346404'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/7799799916317346404'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2009/11/ok-im-back.html' title='Ok - I&apos;m Back'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-4971225261243580899</id><published>2008-08-09T23:55:00.003-04:00</published><updated>2008-08-10T00:23:04.747-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Tisha b&apos;av'/><title type='text'>Tonight, the Night of the Ninth of Av...</title><content type='html'>&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;From the Kinnos (laments) read tonight...&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;On this night, weep and howl my children,&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Upon this night was my holy house destroyed and my palaces burned!&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;And all the House of Israel shall mourn my agony, &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;And they shall cry for the conflagration lit by G-D.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;On this night I was blackened and the sun, moon and stars darkened,&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;For the destruction of my holy house and the annulment of the watches!&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Upon this night, torments surrounded and encircled me, &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;And He declared it a fixed time for the Five Decrees.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;For on this night, they cried without cause and, lo, &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;It was fixed a night of weeping for all generations;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Thus HaShem caused it to happen so.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;On this night, weep and howl my children,&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Upon this night was my holy house destroyed and my palaces burned!&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;And all the House of Israel shall mourn my agony, &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;And they shall cry for the conflagration lit by G-D.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Bamidbar &lt;/span&gt;(Leviticus) 13:25 - 14:1 records that, upon the return of the spies to the people, they provided a slanderous and disparaging report of the Land of Israel.   Rather than believe the promises of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;HaShem&lt;/span&gt;, of a land flowing with milk and honey, the Jewish people accepted the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;lashon ho-ra &lt;/span&gt;of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;meraglim&lt;/span&gt;, the spies, and wept over it.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Talmud in Taanis 29a records that, since we cried for no reason on the 9th of Av, G-d in turn decreed that this night would be cause for tears for all generations.  The Talmud &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;ibid&lt;/span&gt;. 26b records that five divine decrees were passed upon this date:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1) Those guilty of accepting the report of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;meraglim &lt;/span&gt;were destined to die in the wilderness without entering the Land of Israel.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2) The First temple would be destroyed on the 9th of Av.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3) The Second temple would be destroyed on the 9th of Av.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;4)  Bar Kokhba's revolt would be crushed at Beitar on the 9th of Av.   The Talmud in Gittin 57a records that the non-Jews fertilized their fields for 7 years with the blood of the Jews killed in this conflict.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;5) The evil Roman prelate Turnus Rufus would have the entire city of Jerusalem razed and plowed over on this date.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To all of these events, the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;paytan&lt;/span&gt;, the poet, refers verses.&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-4971225261243580899?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/4971225261243580899/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=4971225261243580899&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/4971225261243580899'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/4971225261243580899'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/08/tonight-night-of-ninth-of-av.html' title='Tonight, the Night of the Ninth of Av...'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-6337766577511726980</id><published>2008-07-29T17:00:00.002-04:00</published><updated>2008-07-29T17:00:00.966-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Tisha b&apos;av'/><title type='text'>Preparing for the Nine Days...</title><content type='html'>&lt;span style="font-size:180%;"&gt;אונטער דער ערד&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;UNDER THE EARTH&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;Are there birds twittering under the earth&lt;br /&gt; choking back holy tears in their thin necks,&lt;br /&gt; or is that throbbing beneath the earth&lt;br /&gt; once used words that only seem the sound of unseen birds?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Wherever my feet are wise to walk,&lt;br /&gt; over snow, over hay, over drunken fire.&lt;br /&gt; they feel words,&lt;br /&gt; the souls of words,&lt;br /&gt; it is a pity that my feet cannot hold a pencil...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Like a snake-charmer&lt;br /&gt; I halt my feet in their going:&lt;br /&gt; here and here and here&lt;br /&gt; here they are, here.&lt;br /&gt; Once used silence.&lt;br /&gt; Once used places.&lt;br /&gt; And I dig with my hands - my bony spades,&lt;br /&gt; down to where the black palaces burst,&lt;br /&gt; where words throb&lt;br /&gt; hidden in the sound of violins.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; - Avrom Sutzkever&lt;br /&gt;    1956&lt;br /&gt;   &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  Translated from the original Yiddish&lt;br /&gt;  by A. C. Bloomenstiel&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-6337766577511726980?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/6337766577511726980/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=6337766577511726980&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/6337766577511726980'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/6337766577511726980'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/07/preparing-for-nine-days.html' title='Preparing for the Nine Days...'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-3738333250968051194</id><published>2008-07-28T15:59:00.002-04:00</published><updated>2008-07-28T16:29:22.734-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Yishuv ha-aretz'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='halacha'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Breslov'/><title type='text'>Question From a Simple Jew...</title><content type='html'>&lt;strong&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;See the discussion &lt;a href="http://asimplejew.blogspot.com/2008/07/aliyah-forum.html"&gt;here &lt;/a&gt;and &lt;a href="http://asimplejew.blogspot.com/2008/07/lets-be-honest-most-of-heterim-have.html"&gt;here &lt;/a&gt;regarding living in the land of Israel.   This was the response from Rabbi Bloomenstiel to the discussion.  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt; - DM&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia;"&gt;The nature of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mitzvah &lt;/span&gt;of living in &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Eretz Yisroel&lt;/span&gt; absent the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Beis Mikdash&lt;/span&gt; is not a clear cut &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;chiyuv&lt;/span&gt;.  The earliest &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halachic &lt;/span&gt;(non-&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;aggadic&lt;/span&gt;) reference is &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Ramban &lt;/span&gt;commenting on  &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Bamidbar&lt;/span&gt; 33:53, which is the potential &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;makor &lt;/span&gt;of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;chiyuv&lt;/span&gt;.   According to the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Ramban&lt;/span&gt;, there is a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;chiyuv d’oraisa &lt;/span&gt;to pack up and move to &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Eretz Yisroel.&lt;/span&gt;  However,  later &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Rishonim &lt;/span&gt;and the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Acharonim &lt;/span&gt;wrestle with the fact that the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Rambam &lt;/span&gt;does not include this &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mitzvah &lt;/span&gt;in his enumeration of the 613 &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mitzvos&lt;/span&gt;.  &lt;u1:p&gt;&lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia;"&gt;Additionally, the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Shulchan Aruch&lt;/span&gt; is mum on this issue.  While the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Mechaber paskens &lt;/span&gt;repeatedly that certain &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;miztvos &lt;/span&gt;operate differently or apply differently in the Land, there is no actual statement that one must pack up and move there.  &lt;u1:p&gt;&lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia;"&gt;Many &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;meforshim &lt;/span&gt;have tried to explain the omission in the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Rambam&lt;/span&gt;.  Some explain that &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;yishuv Eretz Yisroel&lt;/span&gt; is only a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;hekhshar mitzvah &lt;/span&gt;(see &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Rashbam &lt;/span&gt;to &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Bava Basra 91a&lt;/span&gt;).   Others explain that the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mitzvah &lt;/span&gt;was abrogated with the destruction of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Beis Mikdash&lt;/span&gt; (see &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;sefer Megillas Esther&lt;/span&gt; on the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Rambam &lt;/span&gt;– I have several &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;kashos &lt;/span&gt;on this &lt;i&gt;deah&lt;/i&gt;, though).   Then, of course, there is the aforementioned comment of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Tosafos &lt;/span&gt;to &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Kesubos &lt;/span&gt;110b that there is no &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mitzvah &lt;/span&gt;due to the hardship associated with living in the land.   Incidentally, this remark doesn’t actually state that there is no &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mitzvah&lt;/span&gt;, only that one is &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;potur &lt;/span&gt;due to the hardship.  In our days, however, we can legitimately question the applicability of this &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;svora&lt;/span&gt;. &lt;u1:p&gt;&lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia;"&gt;            The &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;le-maase&lt;/span&gt; question of whether one is obligated to pack up and move to &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Eretz Yisroel&lt;/span&gt; was the subject of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Teshuvos &lt;/span&gt;from both Rav Moshe ztz”l  (&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Igros Moshe, Even ha-Ezer I:102&lt;/span&gt;) and Rav Ovadia Yoseif, shlit”a (written in several places, and heard personally many times). &lt;u1:p&gt;&lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia;"&gt; According to Rav Feinstein, the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mitzvah &lt;/span&gt;of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;yishuv ha-aretz&lt;/span&gt; is a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;reshus&lt;/span&gt;, meaning that one is under no &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halachic &lt;/span&gt;obligation or pressure to make &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;aliya&lt;/span&gt;.   However, if one did, then he is praiseworthy and accredited a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mitzvah&lt;/span&gt;.  The understanding that there is no &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;chiyuv &lt;/span&gt;of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;yishuv &lt;/span&gt;is found in many other Ashkenazi &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;acharonim&lt;/span&gt;: see Rav Yaakov of Lissa to &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Kesuvos &lt;/span&gt;110b and the Chofetz Chayim in his &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Mikhtavim&lt;/span&gt;.   They both state the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halacha &lt;/span&gt;is like the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Rambam &lt;/span&gt;and that there is no &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;chiyuv &lt;/span&gt;of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;yishuv &lt;/span&gt;in our days.  Such appears to have been the interpretation of the majority of the Ashkenazi &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;poskim&lt;/span&gt;.  &lt;u1:p&gt;&lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia;"&gt;            Among the Sefardim, the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;poskim &lt;/span&gt;tended to read the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Ramban &lt;/span&gt;literally and hold that the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mitzvah &lt;/span&gt;of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;yishuv &lt;/span&gt;is a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;chiyuv&lt;/span&gt;.  In the early 1980’s Rav Yoseif became the strongest proponent of this interpretation and has argued strongly against Rav Moshe.   &lt;u1:p&gt;&lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia;"&gt;&lt;u1:p&gt; &lt;/u1:p&gt;            All in all, that is the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halachic &lt;/span&gt;baseline:  for the Ashkenzaim, according to the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;rov&lt;/span&gt;, &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;yishuv &lt;/span&gt;is at best a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mitzvah reshus &lt;/span&gt;and not a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;chiyuv &lt;/span&gt;( Rav Kook ztvk”l was a minority in his view).    For the Sephardim, it is a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;chiyuv&lt;/span&gt;.  &lt;u1:p&gt;&lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia;"&gt;&lt;u1:p&gt; &lt;/u1:p&gt;            Knowing this, I read Rav Breiter hy”d (of whom I am a BIG fan) as stating that, while there is no &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halachic chiyuv &lt;/span&gt;of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;yishuv&lt;/span&gt;, one must do everything possible to go.  In this sense it is a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;midda ha-chasidus&lt;/span&gt;, potentially akin to donning Rabbeinu Tam Tefillin, or going daily to the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mikva&lt;/span&gt;.   Note that he says “&lt;em&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia;"&gt;Every day of your life, yearn, pray and make a practical effort to live in Eretz Yisroel, or at the very least to walk four steps there.”  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia; font-style: normal;"&gt;If we were talking &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halachic chiyuv&lt;/span&gt;, then there would be no “at least.”  A &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;chiyuv d’oraisa&lt;/span&gt; is a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;chiyuv &lt;/span&gt;(in all honesty, though there is wiggle room to say that concepts of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;lechatchila &lt;/span&gt;&amp;amp; &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;b’dieved &lt;/span&gt;do exist by &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;d’oraisa’s &lt;/span&gt;that are &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halachos le-moshe misinai&lt;/span&gt; – see the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Pri Megadim’s hakdama&lt;/span&gt; to &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;hilchos shechita,&lt;/span&gt; however here we are talking about a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;d’oraisa she nikhtav be-kra&lt;/span&gt;).   One may legitimately say, though, that this &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;midda ha-chassidus&lt;/span&gt; is stronger than that of wearing Rabbeinu Tam since it has a m&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;akor be-kra,&lt;/span&gt; but it is very hard to split hairs in this area.    &lt;u1:p&gt;&lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia; font-style: normal;"&gt;&lt;u1:p&gt; &lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia; font-style: normal;"&gt;            Practically, then, it means that if your are one who holds of the Breslov &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;shitta &lt;/span&gt;(which is Rav Breiter) then you should always endeavor and make it your goal to live there.  However, since it is a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;midda ha-chasidus&lt;/span&gt;, mitigating factors will be much more influential in creating leniencies. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-3738333250968051194?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/3738333250968051194/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=3738333250968051194&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/3738333250968051194'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/3738333250968051194'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/07/question-from-simple-jew.html' title='Question From a Simple Jew...'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-2259985496283777133</id><published>2008-07-27T03:42:00.004-04:00</published><updated>2008-07-27T03:52:56.175-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='holocaust'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Tisha b&apos;av'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Shiva Osur b&apos;Tammus'/><title type='text'>Preparing for the Nine Days...</title><content type='html'>&lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;    As the nine days approaches, I commence a review of my learning of the events of the churban Beis Mikdash from the gemora and midrashim.&lt;span style=""&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;    In recent years, though, I have found that poetry (both the kinnos and Yiddish poetry) helps to sharpen my emotional response to the time at hand.  In particular, the writings of survivors of many of the major calamities that have befallen our people  (i.e. the inquisition, the Holocaust, etc.)  As we get closer to the 9&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup style="font-style: italic;"&gt;th&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt; of Av, I would  like to share some of the most striking writings with you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;   &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-weight: bold;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;In Memoriam&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Strangers’ eyes don’t see&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;how in my small room I open a door&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;and begin my nightly stroll among the graves. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;(how much earth, if you can call it that, is enough to bury smoke?)&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;There are valleys and hills&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;and hidden twisted paths, &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;enough to last a whole night’s journey. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;In the dark I see shining towards me &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;faces of epitaphs&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;wailing their songs.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;Graves&lt;/st1:place&gt; of the whole &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;vanished Jewish world&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Blossom in the&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt; dalet-amos&lt;/span&gt; of my tent.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;And I pray:&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Be a father, a mother to me,&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;a sister, a brother&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;my own children, beloved kin, &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;real as pain,&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;from my own blood and flesh, be my own dead, &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;let me grasp and take-in&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;these destroyed millions.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;At dawn I close the door&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;to the graveyard of my people.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;I sit at the table and nod off&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;whilst humming a tune. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;The enemy had no dominion over them.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Fathers, mothers, children from their cradles&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;encircled death and overcame him. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;All the children, astounded, &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;ran to meet the fear of death&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;without tears, like little &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;yiddishe ma’aselakh&lt;/span&gt;. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;and they soon flickered in to flames&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;like small namesakes of G-D.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Who else, like me, &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;has in the nighttime his own&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;dead garden?&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Who is destined for this as am I?&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Who has so much dead earth awaiting him, as for me?&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;And when I die&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Who will inherent my little graveyard, &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;And that shining gift,&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;an eternal &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;yortzeit &lt;/span&gt;light,&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;forever flickering?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;--Yaakov Gletshtein, 1961&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:85%;"&gt;   --Translated from the original Yiddish by &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:85%;"&gt;   --Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-2259985496283777133?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/2259985496283777133/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=2259985496283777133&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/2259985496283777133'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/2259985496283777133'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/07/as-nine-days-approaches-i-commence.html' title='Preparing for the Nine Days...'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-866421049751093919</id><published>2008-07-24T21:25:00.003-04:00</published><updated>2008-07-24T23:09:01.358-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Hashkofa'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='halacha'/><title type='text'>The Post I Didn't Want to Write...</title><content type='html'>A lot of e-mails came in about my post of a few days ago.  Now, I know that people do not usually exercise their best critical reading skill when perusing blogs.  But, this is simply silly.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;   One comment came in today that, rather than put in the comments section, I will post here.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; The special beauty of this comment is that it exemplifies everything that I have written about thus far.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; "Yeshivabochur" wrote:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Your suggestion that chazal could have ered [sic.] in their understanding of science and the     natural world transgresses makchish meggeida.  Do you understand the implications of             that?  There is no support for such a suggestion.  Also, who are you to comment on issues         of   halacha and hashkofa? Do you have smicha? Even so, you have to be a poseik to do             that... are you?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;   Them's fightin' words. Here is my response:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    I absolutely do understand the implications of being &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;over &lt;/span&gt;on makchish megideha (denying the authority of the Sages of the Talmud); Such a transgression is a halachic qualification of a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;min&lt;/span&gt;, a heretic.  There is more to be written about this, but I will save it for the end of my response. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    Now, where in the post did I suggest that chaza"l erred in their understanding of science? I wrote no such thing.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    As to your claim that "there is no support for such a suggestion [that Chazal's understanding of the natural sciences was fallible],"  you are completely, unequivocally, without a doubt, dead wrong.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    First go see Brachos 44b, 58b, 59a; Shabbos 41a, 85a; Eiruvin 45b, 56a, 76a, 76b; Pesachim 93b - 94b; Succa 8a-b; Ta'anis 9b - 10a; Chagiga 12b; Nazir 52a; Sotah 3b - 4b; Sotah 10a; Sanhedrin 5a-5b; Makkos 5b; Avoda Zara 27b - 28a; Chullin 57a-57b, 59a-b, 63b, 77a; Bechoros 21b; Tomid 31b - 32a; Nidda 22b; Nidda 30b - 31b.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    Then go look at the Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim 3:14 &amp;amp; 2:8, in Hilchos Shechita 10:12,13, in Hilchos Kidush ha-Chodesh 9:1 &amp;amp; 17:24, and in the hakdama to his Peirush al ha-Mishnayos.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    See R' Shereira Gaon in Otzar ha-Geonim to Gittin 68.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    Now go look at the Ralbag in his Peirushei ha-Torah: Biur Divrei ha-Sofer on Bereishis 15:4.  S  See also his Peirush le-Iyuv: Biur Divreu ha-Ma'ane 38:18-20.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    See the Rashba in Chiddushei al Shas to Eiruvin 76:2, Hullin 59:1, and in the Torah ha-Bayis 3:1.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    See the Rosh (Tosafos ha-Rosh) on Eiruvin 76:2 &amp;amp; Succa 8:2; See Piskei ha-Rosh to Pesachim 2:30; and Shu"t ha-Rosh 14:2.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    See the Ran in the Chiddushei al Shas to Eruvin 76:3 &amp;amp; Chullin 42:1.  See also his peirush on the Rif to Chullin 20 (p. 1 in the Rif).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    Don't forget the Shu"t ha-Radvaz IV:282.  See also the first Drisha to Yoreh Deah 52. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    Also, the third Pri Chadash to O.C. 454 and the second Pri Chadash to Y.D. 80.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    See also the  Shu"t Maharam Shick: Even ha-Ezer 7; R' Shimshon Raphael Hirsch in his letter to  Rav Pinchas Wexler; R' Eliyahu Dessler in Michtav Mi-Eliyahu IV, p. 355, note 4; Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach in  in the introduction to Sefer Shemiras ha-Guf veha-Nefesh, perek 4; R' Aryeh Carmell in the Aruch Michtav mi-Eliyahu, "Freedom to Interpret," p. 13; R' Ephraim Greenblatt in the Revavos Ephraim.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    And, don't overlook the Chazon Ish,  Even ha-Ezer, Hilchos Ishus 27:3 which states that Chazal did not have a complete understanding of the sciences.     &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;   Know that these are just a sampling;  I have almost three times as many mekoros in my notes. I am providing these sources only to prove that there is support for such a position; personally, I do not take that position (I don't necessarily take the alternative one either).  Rather,  I am just trying to inject some intellectual honesty into this discussion. &lt;br /&gt;   &lt;br /&gt;    Now, let's  return to your accusation of makchish meggideha (denial of the authority of the Sages).  Makchish meggideha as a halachic qualification of a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;min&lt;/span&gt;, a heretic, was  established by the Rambam in Hilchos Teshuva 3:8.   The sweet irony is that Rambam himself also holds that Chaza"l were fallible in their scientific understanding of natural phenomena!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;     The solution to this apparent contradiction is in the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Peirush ha-Mishnayos&lt;/span&gt; on Sanhedrin 11:3.  There the Rambam explains that a makchish magideha is one who denies the concept or authority of the Oral Torah; not one who questions the scientific understanding of the Sages.  This understanding that is relied upon in halacha le-ma'aseh.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  Lastly, as for the last statement/question in your comment, the answer is "yes" on both counts.  However, it is denigrating and insulting to imply that non-Rabbonim are not allowed to discuss halacha and hashkofa.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    - Avi Bloomenstiel&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-866421049751093919?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/866421049751093919/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=866421049751093919&amp;isPopup=true' title='7 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/866421049751093919'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/866421049751093919'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/07/post-i-didnt-want-to-write.html' title='The Post I Didn&apos;t Want to Write...'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>7</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-1850433305967757841</id><published>2008-07-24T13:20:00.002-04:00</published><updated>2008-07-24T13:29:06.123-04:00</updated><title type='text'>Ha-Mavin Yavin</title><content type='html'>אַ וועג.&lt;br /&gt;אַ פעלד.&lt;br /&gt;אַ צאַפּלדיקע לאָנקע.&lt;br /&gt;געהיימע טריט&lt;br /&gt;פון הונגעריקע וואָלקנס.&lt;br /&gt;וואו זענען די הענט, וואָס שאַפן וואונדער?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;A path.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;A field.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;A trembling meadow.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Hidden footprints &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;of hungering clouds.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Where are the hands that make miracles?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;             - &lt;/span&gt;Avrom Sutzkever&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;               from &lt;/span&gt;אויף מיין וואַנדערפייפל&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-1850433305967757841?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/1850433305967757841/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=1850433305967757841&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/1850433305967757841'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/1850433305967757841'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/07/ha-mavin-yavin.html' title='Ha-Mavin Yavin'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-8274990828910750506</id><published>2008-07-23T00:35:00.005-04:00</published><updated>2008-07-23T03:04:03.990-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Hashkofa'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='emunah'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='faith'/><title type='text'>Faith and Exegesis, Dogma and Dialogue</title><content type='html'>We have recently embarked upon an exploration of Jewish "faith" as connoted by the English term. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;      For this posting, I would like to offer something of a personal meditation on the idea of doctrine in Yiddishkeit. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    About 18 months ago, while researching a knotty &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;shailo &lt;/span&gt;as to the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halachic &lt;/span&gt;status of a certain Christian sect, I had occasion to delve into some of the particulars of Christian theology and biblical Exegesis.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;   I am not an expert in this at all and will readily admit that my understanding  is incomplete.   However,  I read enough to sense some large-scale perceptual distinctions in the exegetical process between "us" and "them."  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    In the Christian commentaries there is an overwhelming emphasis on narrative. The who's, where's, and what's are the most important elements of the interpretation.   Ultimately, the interpretation of the narrative is geared toward the derivation or clarification of doctrine.   For example: A said X.   Let us examine when A said it in the order of the narrative, where he said it, to whom he said it,  what was said before and after it, and, lastly, let us examine X itself.   Ultimately, how does this understanding of the narrative feed into our formulation of doctrine.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    In this sense, the broad view seems to be one of "narrative doxology."   Complete understanding of the narrative is the vehicle for the codification of the doctrine.  Again, I am not an expert at all.  However, this trend seemed to be the main concern of the Christian commentaries that I perused. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    While there are similar streams of narrative exegesis in the Torah commentaries, the bulk of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;meforshim &lt;/span&gt;appear to emphasize an empirical reading of the text.  For example, the definition of prohibited &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;melachos &lt;/span&gt;on &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;shabbos  &lt;/span&gt;is derived by an empirical comparison of the term's use between the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mitzvos &lt;/span&gt;of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;shabbos &lt;/span&gt;and the building of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mishkan&lt;/span&gt;.    While the Christian commentaries work via narrative interpretation to codify doctrine, ours emphasizes an empirical exegesis in order to derive practice.   Let's grant the Jewish view the unwieldy label of "empirical praxology."&lt;br /&gt;   &lt;br /&gt;    What emerges from these two understandings are two separate intellectual mechanics.   In Christianity, the narrative builds the retaining walls of doctrine.   For, example the narrative states that G-d created the world as it was in six days.   Evolution or any other extra-narrative concepts will thus be excluded from the final doctrine.    While doctrine evolves into a rigid system, practice will remain vague and extremely subjective in that there is no empirical attempt to qualify it.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    Ultimately, though, what happens when the narrative is challenged by scientific evidence?  Well, you then have two options.  One, is to oppose the science, thus casting your religion into a dark age and seriously impinging your credibility among thinking individual.  Two, is to reinterpret the narrative as non-literal or metaphoric.   This is the past that the church has often taken, yet with an unintended consequence.   By reinventing these previously literal narratives as mere metaphores, the theological authority of the narrative is greatly eroded.   Many Christian scholars have identified this trend as responsible for the creation of a "God of the Margins" theology which relegates the concept of a creator to only those areas which are inexplicable by science.   For the church, this is a dire paradox. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    Judaism, by emphasizing an empirical reading of the text to create a rigid system of practice, has ended up with fairly plastic boundaries when it comes to narrative/doctrinal interpretation. For example, although the Torah state that the world was created in six days, there are many &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;meforshim &lt;/span&gt;who freely explore the literalness of this narrative (R' Yitzchok of Akko, &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Drush Ohr ha-Chaim&lt;/span&gt; from the Tiferes Yisroel, &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Sefer ha-Temunah, Livnas ha-Sapir&lt;/span&gt;, and many more).   In fact, the Rambam in many places (i.e. &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Peirush ha-Mishnayos&lt;/span&gt; to Shavuos, and at the end of Makkos)  states that &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;psak&lt;/span&gt;, reaching a final scholarly and practical conclusion, only applies to &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halachic &lt;/span&gt;matters.  In matters of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;hashkofa &lt;/span&gt;(doctrine), one cannot say "we do not &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;pasken &lt;/span&gt;like that" with regard to an opinion posited by a valid Torah authority.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    In this sense, Judaism has always retained a certain openness to reinterpretation and discussion of narrative and doctrine without the threat of weakening the pillars of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halacha&lt;/span&gt;.  After all, the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;action &lt;/span&gt;of Judaism is, in a sense,  primary over the contemplation of Jewish doctrine (&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;na'aseh ve-nishma&lt;/span&gt;). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    However, something has happened in the past 6 years that utterly terrifies me.   The banning of several of R' Nosson Slifkin's books and other similar events is evidence to me of the emergence of a new, inflexible conception of Jewish doctrine.   More and more,  I am hearing colleagues and &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;gadolim &lt;/span&gt;speaking of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;hashkofa &lt;/span&gt;in the language of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;psak halacha.&lt;/span&gt;  My fear is that, by tinkering with the intellectual structure of Jewish exegesis, we will eventually paint ourselves into a theological corner and fall victim to the same paradoxes of interpretation which trouble the Christians.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;    I apologize for the lack of citations or specific textual references in this post but, as I wrote above, this is much more of a personal musing/meditation/proposition than an academic exposition.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; - Rabbi Avraham Bloomenstiel&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-8274990828910750506?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/8274990828910750506/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=8274990828910750506&amp;isPopup=true' title='6 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/8274990828910750506'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/8274990828910750506'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/07/faith-and-exegesis-dogma-and-dialogue.html' title='Faith and Exegesis, Dogma and Dialogue'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>6</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-8813292234855480929</id><published>2008-07-20T19:48:00.003-04:00</published><updated>2008-12-10T21:31:11.334-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Taanis'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Fast'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Likutey Moharan'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Breslov'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Shiva Osur b&apos;Tammus'/><title type='text'>Rav Nachman of Breslov on Today, Shiva Asur b'Tammuz</title><content type='html'>&lt;a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5Wfsa8XbBuM/SIPSCrRh6fI/AAAAAAAAABU/hvVec9cRgX4/s1600-h/RNachmanA.jpg"&gt;&lt;img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5Wfsa8XbBuM/SIPSCrRh6fI/AAAAAAAAABU/hvVec9cRgX4/s320/RNachmanA.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5225250936097729010" border="0" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;The &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;Novi&lt;/st1:place&gt; (Malachi 3:22) orders us:&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i style=""&gt;Zichru Toras Moshe&lt;/i&gt;, “Remember the Torah of Moses.” Considering that this order is given as part of the Prophet’s discourse on the &lt;i style=""&gt;sechar&lt;/i&gt; (reward) for the &lt;i style=""&gt;mitzvos&lt;/i&gt;, the word &lt;i style=""&gt;zichru&lt;/i&gt; (remember) is odd.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;It would have made more sense for the Prophet to have said &lt;i style=""&gt;kiymu&lt;/i&gt; (fulfill) &lt;i style=""&gt;Toras Moshe &lt;/i&gt;or &lt;i style=""&gt;tishmeru&lt;/i&gt; (observe) &lt;i style=""&gt;Toras Moshe&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;Why did the Prophet elect the weaker language of &lt;i style=""&gt;zichru&lt;/i&gt; (remember)?  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;    Rabbeinu za”l, Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, explains this language in &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Likutei Moharan I:217&lt;/span&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;    When HaShem gave the 1&lt;sup&gt;st &lt;/sup&gt;set of tablets, He Himself engraved the words upon the stones (Shmos 32:16).&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;The Gemora (Eruvin 54a) and many &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;meforshim &lt;/span&gt;understand that the  words, engraved by divine hand, were supernaturally “engraved” upon the hearts and souls of all those who studied them.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;The presence of the divinely engraved tablets made the Torah indelible to all who learned it.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;However, with Moshe Rabbinu’s smashing of the tablets, &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Chaza”l &lt;/span&gt;tell us that forgetfulness entered the world.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;The Gemora (Yoma 4b) pinpoints the date upon which the tablets were shattered and that the ability to forget the Torah entered the world: the 17&lt;sup&gt;th&lt;/sup&gt; of Tammuz. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;If it were not for the destruction of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;luchos &lt;/span&gt;on that day, it would be impossible to forget Torah.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;    The initial letters of the phrase&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;Z&lt;/span&gt;ichru &lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;T&lt;/span&gt;oras &lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;M&lt;/span&gt;oshe&lt;/i&gt; are those of the Hebrew month of Tammuz: &lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;TMZ&lt;/span&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The prophet is intimating, by use of the word &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;zichru &lt;/span&gt;(remember) and the initial letters &lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;TMZ&lt;/span&gt;, that we must specifically strive to remember our learning in order to rectify the blemish of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;shichicha &lt;/span&gt;(forgetfulness) which descended into the world as a result of the destruction of the 1&lt;sup&gt;st&lt;/sup&gt; tablets.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;    Now, you may notice that this spelling of Tammuz is &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;choser&lt;/span&gt;, lacking the letter &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;vav&lt;/span&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Rabbi Nachman writes that, as a result of the shattering of the tablets, the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;vav &lt;/span&gt;“departed.”&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;As is common in the writings of the Rebbe, the letter &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;vav &lt;/span&gt;is understood to refer to the tablets which the sages tell us (Bava Basra 14a) were &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;vav &lt;/span&gt;hand-breadths long and &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;vav &lt;/span&gt;hand-breadths wide (6x6 – the letter &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;vav &lt;/span&gt;is the number 6). &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Thus, &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Zichru Toras Moshe&lt;/span&gt; is an adjuration to us to remember, to review, and to cling to the Torah so that we may rectify the events of the month of Tammuz when the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;luchos &lt;/span&gt;(the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;vav&lt;/span&gt;) departed.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;    Furthermore, note that the breaking of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;luchos &lt;/span&gt;occurred 40 days after the 6&lt;sup&gt;th&lt;/sup&gt; of Sivan, which is Shavuos.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;davening &lt;/span&gt;we call Shavous &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;Z&lt;/span&gt;man &lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;M&lt;/span&gt;atan &lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;T&lt;/span&gt;oroseinu&lt;/span&gt;, the initial letters of which also spell &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;TMZ &lt;/span&gt;without the vav.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;So we see that on the holiday of Shavuos, which commemorates the giving of the Torah, we hint to the forgetfulness that was brought into the world and the need to rectify it by constantly rededicating ourselves to the study and remembrance of the Torah.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;    In this sense, the fast of the 17&lt;sup&gt;th&lt;/sup&gt; of Tammuz and the celebration of the giving of the Torah on Shavuos share a common element – the rectification of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;shichicha &lt;/span&gt;(forgetfulness) and the blemish of the shattering of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;luchos&lt;/span&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;    Therefore, in Breslov there is a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;minhag &lt;/span&gt;held by many to rededicate oneself on this day to Torah learning; to adopt a new &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;seder&lt;/span&gt;, or to begin a new &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;masechta&lt;/span&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-8813292234855480929?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/8813292234855480929/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=8813292234855480929&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/8813292234855480929'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/8813292234855480929'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/07/rav-nachman-of-breslov-on-today-shiva.html' title='Rav Nachman of Breslov on Today, Shiva Asur b&apos;Tammuz'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><media:thumbnail xmlns:media='http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/' url='http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5Wfsa8XbBuM/SIPSCrRh6fI/AAAAAAAAABU/hvVec9cRgX4/s72-c/RNachmanA.jpg' height='72' width='72'/><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-8745048209279093547</id><published>2008-07-10T14:19:00.003-04:00</published><updated>2008-07-10T14:36:02.211-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='emunah'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='haskhkofa'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='faith'/><title type='text'>Guest Posting from Professor Marc Caplan: Faith and Emunah</title><content type='html'>&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span class="bodytext"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;I don't think a question can be properly considered "Jewish" if there are not at least two answers to it.   &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;One of the first and most meaningful philosophical discussions on faith I read as a (relatively) young adult is Kierkegaard's meditation on the &lt;i style=""&gt;akedah&lt;/i&gt;, "Fear and Trembling"; although it is a thoroughly Christian (specifically Protestant--and I think this distinction is significant here) work, his idea of the "leap of faith," an existential act more difficult and demanding than the certainty of science or reason, has always reminded me of the &lt;i style=""&gt;midrash&lt;/i&gt; about Nachshon jumping into the &lt;i style=""&gt;yam-suf&lt;/i&gt;. Christianity inherits--with distortions and appropriations, to be certain--its vocabulary of faith from Judaism, and Jewish philosophers in turn have continued to influence and be influenced by Christian thought. &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;On that score there is a great (and magnificently true!) story that the Latin tractate &lt;i style=""&gt;Fons Vitae&lt;/i&gt;, attributed for centuries to one Avicebron and considered a leading work of medieval Christian scholasticism, was determined in 1846 to be a translation from Hebrew of a work, &lt;i style=""&gt;Mekor Hayyim,&lt;/i&gt; by Solomon Ibn Gabirol! So clearly, there is a lot to be shared and a lot to be learned from one another.&lt;u1:p&gt;&lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;&lt;u1:p&gt; &lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;Nonetheless, I think the primary distinction between Christian faith and Jewish &lt;i style=""&gt;emunah&lt;/i&gt; is a matter of reciprocity and mutual obligation. For Catholicism, for example, faith is primarily an act of external signification, demonstrated via confession, communion, sacraments, etc. &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;For Protestantism, by contrast, faith is generally conceived as an internal conviction. In both denominations, there is an ongoing debate about the relative significance of "works" and "grace" in achieving salvation--a preoccupation in Christianity that as far as I can tell has no meaningful parallel in Jewish thought.&lt;u1:p&gt;&lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;&lt;u1:p&gt; &lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;Judaism, &lt;i style=""&gt;l'havdil&lt;/i&gt;, emphasizes neither the external nor the internal, but the necessity of harmonizing the two. Concepts such as &lt;i style=""&gt;kashruth, shabbos, tehara&lt;/i&gt;, etc., cannot be segregated meaningfully into an external or internal component. "Faith" in Judaism is not expressed but is enacted through the Jew's conduct of everyday life. Therefore, faith, or &lt;i style=""&gt;emunah&lt;/i&gt;, in Judaism is not an end-in-itself as it is in Christianity; it is the means of establishing a reciprocal relationship with God, placing the burden on the believing Jew not in affirming faith, but in building on an eternal covenant to create a Jewish life, a Jewish family, a Jewish community, etc.&lt;u1:p&gt;&lt;/u1:p&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span class="bodytext"&gt;&lt;i style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;Dr. Caplan is a Yiddish language scholar and author currently residing in &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:city st="on"&gt;Baltimore&lt;/st1:city&gt;  &lt;st1:state st="on"&gt;Maryland&lt;/st1:state&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;He is the Zelda and Myer Tandetnik Professor in Yiddish Language at the &lt;st1:placename st="on"&gt;Johns&lt;/st1:placename&gt; &lt;st1:placename st="on"&gt;Hopkins&lt;/st1:placename&gt; &lt;st1:placetype st="on"&gt;University&lt;/st1:placetype&gt; in &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:city st="on"&gt;Baltimore&lt;/st1:city&gt;, &lt;st1:state st="on"&gt;MD.&lt;/st1:state&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-8745048209279093547?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/8745048209279093547/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=8745048209279093547&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/8745048209279093547'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/8745048209279093547'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/07/guest-posting-from-professor-marc.html' title='Guest Posting from Professor Marc Caplan: Faith and Emunah'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-1427954703331109267</id><published>2008-07-08T22:45:00.001-04:00</published><updated>2008-07-08T22:45:41.495-04:00</updated><title type='text'>Affirming the Faith...</title><content type='html'>&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;    In light of my new association with the well known counter missionary organization Jews for Judaism, I have decided to veer away from the usual subject matter of these postings and, instead, spend some time dwelling on faith.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;The English term “faith” isn’t one heard batted about much in traditional Jewish circles.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;You may think, “Of course it isn’t – we talk about &lt;i style=""&gt;emuna&lt;/i&gt;!”&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;No.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’m not writing about &lt;i style=""&gt;emunah&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I mean “faith,” -&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;that English word laden as it may be with all its non-Judaic (X-tian) and often negative (e.g. blind faith) connotations.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;What does it mean as a Jew to have “faith?”&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;What is our “faith?”&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;How is faith different than &lt;i style=""&gt;emunah&lt;/i&gt;?&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Are they actually different?&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;In the course of my life, I have always had “faith” and &lt;i style=""&gt;emunah&lt;/i&gt; presented to me as concepts associated with particular religious teams. For example, gentiles have “faith” while Jews have &lt;i style=""&gt;emunah&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;The goyim have “belief,” while the Yidden have “certainty.” &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;To be frank, I have never fully understood the fine nuances between these terms or why one is necessarily “Jewish” while the other is not.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;So here is my question for any who may be reading: &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;What is Jewish faith?&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;Let’s try to pin it down – please send your comments and suggestions.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If anyone has a post they would like to offer, please e-mail it to Dovi (webmaster) at &lt;a href="mailto:sfasblog@gmail.com"&gt;sfasblog@gmail.com&lt;/a&gt;. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Please note that Dovi, as per my request, will not accept anonymous posts or posts written under pseudonyms.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Likewise, I will not link to blogs which are owned by pseudonymic or anonymous bloggers.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Everything here should be done face-to-face, so to speak. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Though pseudonymic, this site is linked to ASimpleJew.Blogspot.com because I have known this fellow personally for a few years now and understand something his &lt;i style=""&gt;hashkofa&lt;/i&gt; and what is trying to accomplish via his blog (which is one of my favorites… ooops… bias revealed!)&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;- Avraham Bloomenstiel&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-1427954703331109267?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/1427954703331109267/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=1427954703331109267&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/1427954703331109267'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/1427954703331109267'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/07/affirming-faith.html' title='Affirming the Faith...'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-3866765503716376367</id><published>2008-07-01T19:51:00.003-04:00</published><updated>2008-07-01T20:03:37.312-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='teaching torah'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='organized labor'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='halacha'/><title type='text'>Organized Labor in Halacha Part III</title><content type='html'>&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;In this final installment, we will examine a miscellany of issues relating to organized labor in halacha.&lt;/span&gt; &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Wingdings;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;Strike Breakers&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;What about strike breakers? Since there is a &lt;i&gt;halachik&lt;/i&gt; justification for strikes, it is certainly not proper for the employer to attempt to block that right.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;All the more so, as Rav Moshe points out in&lt;i&gt; Iggros Moshe &lt;/i&gt;Choshen Mishpot&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I:58, &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;it is prohibited for the employer to do anything counter to Torah Law, such as hiring strikebreakers who use physical violence to force the employees back to work. &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Wingdings;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;Paying Workers for Strike Days&lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;On the issue of paying workers for strike days, Rav Kasriel Tschursh &lt;i style=""&gt;paskens&lt;/i&gt; that employees may demand back-pay for the period of a strike. According to Rav Tschursh, &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;the validity of their claim is borne out by the &lt;i style=""&gt;Rosh’s&lt;/i&gt; comments to Bava Kamma 6:6, ruling that rehiring workers after they have been on strike constitutes an implicit agreement to pay them their back-wages.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;However, both Rav Tshurch and the &lt;i style=""&gt;Tashbatz&lt;/i&gt; I:64 appear to agree that they need not be paid their full wages, rather a slightly reduced wage is acceptable.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;This wage in &lt;i style=""&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; is called the &lt;i style=""&gt;sechar bateilah&lt;/i&gt;- essentially “wages of idleness” and is like a form of unemployment pay.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Wingdings;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;The Role of the &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;Adam Chashuv&lt;/i&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;The &lt;i style=""&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; states that you only need the oversight of a &lt;i style=""&gt;halachic&lt;/i&gt; arbitrator, an &lt;i style=""&gt;adam chashuv,&lt;/i&gt; when there is such an &lt;i style=""&gt;adam chashuv&lt;/i&gt; in town.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Absent the approval of this individual, the conditions and regulations of the union are unenforceable.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Yet, if there is no such &lt;i style=""&gt;adam chashuv&lt;/i&gt; in the city, then the conditions of the union are fully enforceable. The &lt;i style=""&gt;Igros Moshe Choshen Misphot&lt;/i&gt; I:59 brings an interesting point on the role of the &lt;i style=""&gt;adam chashuv&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;He derives from language of the &lt;i style=""&gt;rishonim&lt;/i&gt; that this&lt;i style=""&gt; adam chasuv&lt;/i&gt; needn’t be a &lt;i style=""&gt;talmid chacham&lt;/i&gt;, dayan, or anyone in a rabbinic capacity. Rather, this person could be anyone in a position of communal authority and oversight whose purpose is to advocate on behalf of the public. Considering this definition, it appears that our government, who works to protect the rights and interests of consumers, would fulfill the position of &lt;i style=""&gt;adam chashuv.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Furthermore, since the government grants labor unions the rights to regulate labor, then the Unions’ decrees and rules would be considered enforceable even under &lt;i style=""&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt;!&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;Now, if the government fulfills the role of the &lt;i style=""&gt;adam chashuv&lt;/i&gt; in our countries, then the activities of the labor unions are only enforceable and &lt;i style=""&gt;halachically&lt;/i&gt; valid if the government approves of them.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Therefore, we can say that since striking, collective bargaining, and other such things are approved by the government, then they are &lt;i style=""&gt;halachically&lt;/i&gt; valid as well.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;All this having been said, let’s turn our attention to the situation of organized labor within sectors that directly impact the Jewish community.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;For the purposes of this writing, there are three general classes of occupations.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;First, there are those jobs which provide a religious service, yet the non-performance of this service will only cause inconvenience, not transgression.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;An example of such an occupation is that of the &lt;i style=""&gt;shochet&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If all the &lt;i style=""&gt;schochtim&lt;/i&gt; were to go on strike, naturally we wouldn’t have any kosher meat.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Though a clear inconvenience, we do not assume that it will lead anyone to transgress and, &lt;i style=""&gt;chas ve-shalom, &lt;/i&gt;eat non-kosher meat.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;There are many &lt;i style=""&gt;sheelos u-teshuvos&lt;/i&gt; that discuss the issue of &lt;i style=""&gt;shochtim&lt;/i&gt; strikes and it seems that they pose no issue. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;The second category is those positions providing vital services.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;By vital, we mean that if that field’s practitioners were to strike the result would be transgression.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;For example, what would happen if all of the &lt;i style=""&gt;mohelim&lt;/i&gt; sent on strike?&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The &lt;i style=""&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; is that &lt;i style=""&gt;milah&lt;/i&gt; must be done on the eighth bay by a &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;qualified mohel.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;What if all the kosher supervisors went on strike? Then there would be no guarantee as to the kashrus or validity of &lt;i style=""&gt;hekhsherim&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In these cases there is leeway to permit a strike, yet only as a last resort.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Furthermore, those who go on strike bear the responsibility of their actions.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Meaning, that they must provide some sort of same guard to prevent foreseeable transgression that may result.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;For example, they must arrange for brining in subsititute &lt;i style=""&gt;mohelim&lt;/i&gt; from out of town even if these mohalim are much more expensive.&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The third area of Jewish communal occupation is that of the Torah teacher - this deserves its own section.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-weight: bold;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;ul style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Wingdings;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;Teachers of Torah&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;Lastly, we will examine the situation of Torah teachers, which is unique.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;First of all, under &lt;i style=""&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; it is not possible to receive payment for teaching torah.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;When a person sits and learns all day, or teaches Torah to children, they are performing a great mitzvah, a mitzvah beyond valuation.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Thus, it is prohibited to pay someone for teaching Torah (incidentally this law applies primarily to those who teach &lt;i style=""&gt;Torah sh-ba’al peh&lt;/i&gt;; there is discussion amongst the &lt;i style=""&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; regarding those who teach &lt;i style=""&gt;Torah she bi-khsav).&lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Rather, the view of &lt;i style=""&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; is that Torah teachers are basically paid to refrain from work.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;By this way, they are freed from having to earn a living.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;The result is that the obligation to learn and teach Torah full time devolves upon them automatically and immediately.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This is the &lt;i style=""&gt;halachik&lt;/i&gt; reality of their situation. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;Now, this construct is no legal fiction.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;One of the ramifications of this sort of payment arrangement is that Torah teachers cannot strike. After all, the teacher or Torah isn’t considered to have a trade to began with.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Striking is therefore the abandoning of a Torah &lt;i style=""&gt;mitzvah&lt;/i&gt; of &lt;i style=""&gt;harbotzas ha-Torah.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;Yet, Rav Feinstien acknowledged that there is a situation in which a “strike” by torah teachers is justified.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If the wages-to-remain-idle paid to the Torah teachers is so low that things are not only financially difficult, but the pressures of poverty impact the teachers’ ability to do their work successfully, then the teachers may stop work.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The operative logic here is that, since the quality of the instruction and Torah education is starting to suffer, then it is actually in the best interest of the school, the parents, and the children to help the teachers.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Since the long-term gain is improving torah knowledge and preventing its decline, then they may stop work.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Yet, Reb Moshe makes it clear that this is a last resort, only to be used after proper rabbinic consultation and investigation. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;When teachers must strike, Reb Moshe mandates that they should be paid for the period of the work stoppage.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This applies even when teachers engage in a strike that is not entirely sanctioned by &lt;i style=""&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The Rov’s reasoning is that, since the strike is motivated by financial &lt;i style=""&gt;tzoras&lt;/i&gt; and poverty, it is counterintuitive to allow the employer to penalize them by not paying them for their time. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;Given the unique &lt;i style=""&gt;halachic&lt;/i&gt; considerations of Torah educators, it is advisable that they avoid membership in secular teachers’ unions.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The tactics of such unions would often be in conflict with the &lt;i style=""&gt;halachik&lt;/i&gt; situation of Torah teachers.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Indeed, a friend recently showed me a proclamation issued in November, 1980 by the oversight board of &lt;i style=""&gt;Torah u-Mesorah,&lt;/i&gt; the national organization of torah day schools.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This &lt;i style=""&gt;kol koreh&lt;/i&gt; prohibited Torah teachers from joining national secular teachers’ unions and also called for the formation of an &lt;i style=""&gt;Irgun ha-Morim&lt;/i&gt; – a &lt;i style=""&gt;halachically&lt;/i&gt; administered union-of-sorts to to advocate on behalf of day schools teachers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-3866765503716376367?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/3866765503716376367/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=3866765503716376367&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/3866765503716376367'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/3866765503716376367'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/07/organized-labor-in-halacha-part-iii.html' title='Organized Labor in Halacha Part III'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-6006216229400734142</id><published>2008-06-04T01:17:00.002-04:00</published><updated>2008-06-04T01:27:13.447-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='organized labor'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='halacha'/><title type='text'>Halacha and Organized Labor Part II</title><content type='html'>&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;    This is part II of Rabbi Bloomenstiel's most recent set of shiurim.  There may be one or two more parts forthcoming.  Enjoy - Dovid Meisels.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;On it’s face, the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halacha &lt;/span&gt;appears limited in that it only provides for the members of a specific group or trade to unionize for the purpose of self regulation. After all, the &lt;i&gt;gemora&lt;/i&gt; in Bava Basra seems to be speaking of independent contractors and businessmen such as bakers, dyers, &lt;i&gt;shochtim&lt;/i&gt;, etc.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Considering these facts, the &lt;i&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; doesn’t appear to address the general situation of labor unions in our times.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Nowadays, labor unions and similar organizations work on behalf of their bargaining units; engaging in negotiations with their employer to maintain and improve worker rights, compensation, working conditions, etc.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Yet, our &lt;i&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; seems focused on &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;the way that most trade-unions operated in the past. Centuries ago, most guild members were self-employed artisans and craftsmen who worked together to regulate competition and prices amongst themselves. Is there any way to apply our &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halacha &lt;/span&gt;to the modern situation?&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In general the answer is “yes.” Let’s see an example: All the shoemakers in a certain city band together and stipulate that they will only work on such and such days.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Let’s say that half of the shoemakers in the city work in big factory.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Do they have the ability to state that they will only work Sunday through Thursday against the wishes of the employer? They are within the bounds of &lt;i&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;First of all, the factory manager is considered a shoemaker and thus part of the same community as the other shoemakers in as much that his work directly impacts and ensures the production of shoes. Thus, since the laborer shoemakers are the majority, they have the ability to set the policy and terms of their employment even though they are not working for themselves.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In this case, I don’t bellieve that there is any difference based on whether the laborers are working for themselves of for others.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The only questions is: Are they in the majority and are they and their employers members of&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;the same working community?&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If these conditions are met then the workers retain the right to impose regulations, fines, set wages, and work schedules.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;Knowing that the &lt;i&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; has applications in our times, now let us examine some particular features of modern organized labor starting with the “strike.”&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;We saw in the actual &lt;i&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; that the Shulchan Aruch permits members of a union to impose fines upon those who transgress the “rules.”&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Most of the &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; (decisors of Jewish law) treat strikes as a form of a fine or penalty against the employer.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Thus, strikes are permitted under Jewish law.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, as with all things &lt;i&gt;halachik&lt;/i&gt;, there are qualifications. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;Today's employers and employees usually have a contract detailing the responsibilities and expectations of both parties. What happens if an employer has blatantly violated this contract? There are two basic views of such a situation.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;According to many &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt;, most notably Rav Kook ztz”l, if the employer has blatantly violated the contract the the parties must first go to a &lt;i&gt;beis din&lt;/i&gt; (assuming all parties are Jews, of course).&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The &lt;i&gt;beis din&lt;/i&gt; will then try the case as a contract violation. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Now, should the employer refuse to come to &lt;i&gt;beis din&lt;/i&gt; or adhere to the ruling of a &lt;i&gt;beis din&lt;/i&gt;, only then are the workers justified in striking because it is only at that point that the issue becomes one of trampling on the regulatory power of the trade community. &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Once the employer rebels against the authority of the &lt;i&gt;beis din,&lt;/i&gt; the issue becomes one of labor rights and not contract violations.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;At that point the workers may fine the renegade element of their community via a strike. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;However, Rav Eliezer Yehuda Waldenburg ztz”l  &lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;/span&gt;in his monumental 22 volume work &lt;i&gt;Tzitz Eliezer &lt;/i&gt;( II:23) makes no distinction between a contract dispute and a labor dispute.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;He holds that if an employer blatantly violates a labor agreement then the workers may bypass the &lt;i&gt;beis din&lt;/i&gt; entirely and immediately strike.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, this is only so when there is a clear violation of the agreement. If there is any doubt as to whether or not a breach of the labor agreement has occurred, then a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;beis din &lt;/span&gt;must be consulted for a ruling prior to penalizing the employer. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;Of course, going to &lt;i&gt;beis din&lt;/i&gt; is only relevant to Jewish unions versus Jewish employers.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Most unions and employers today are non-Jews.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So what is the situation of a Jew who belongs to a labor union? Is this partnership at all &lt;i&gt;halachically&lt;/i&gt; significant? Apparently, there is no issue joining with the non-Jews in such a partnership.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Though the &lt;i&gt;mechaber&lt;/i&gt; mentions that it is proper to be cautious of joining in joint partnerships with non-Jews, the &lt;i&gt;Rama&lt;/i&gt; states explicitly in Shulchan Aruch O.C. 156 that here is no such problem in our days and that these partnerships are &lt;i&gt;mutar bizman hazeh&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;br /&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;Now, &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;there is another famous &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halachic &lt;/span&gt;question about striking  This issue involves a contractual agreement, yet does not involve any actual violation of the agreement. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;The situation is one in which employees and an employer had worked out a contract at the time of hiring. However, after a year the employees became unhappy with the contract and asked to renegotiate the terms of the original contract.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Such a move on the part of the employees calls into question whether or not they were ever negotiating in good faith to begin with. &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In Jewish law, this creates questions as to the validity of the original contract. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;This exact query is discussed by Rabbi Yosef Molko in his &lt;i&gt;sefer&lt;/i&gt; &lt;i&gt;Ohel Yosef.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;Europe&lt;/st1:place&gt;, a certain slaughter house hired their slaughterers to &lt;i&gt;schecht&lt;/i&gt; a set proportion of cows to chickens.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The &lt;i&gt;shochtim&lt;/i&gt; were paid based on the number of cattle that they &lt;i&gt;schechted&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Due to changes in the economy, the &lt;i&gt;shochtim&lt;/i&gt; began slaughtering many more chickens than originally stipulated in their contract. They went to the employer, who refused to increase their wages.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Rabbi Molko was asked to decide whether or not these employees could strike. His response was a “yes” that they could.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The Rav’s reasoning was that, although the original agreement is still theoretically valid, practically speaking it is rendered unfair retroactively because of an unforeseen change in working conditions and expectations.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The original contract was predicated on a certain reality, one that no longer exists.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Thus, the workers are not bound by the original agreement and may assert their right to fine the employer.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;As an aside, we should note that the actual techniques of the strike must, of course, be permissible under &lt;i&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Therefore, a strike that involves not only a work stoppage but a riot too would be prohibited.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;A questionable strike would be something like a hunger strike.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Rav Waldenburg &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;in the &lt;i&gt;Tzitz&lt;/i&gt; decided a &lt;i&gt;sheela&lt;/i&gt; regarding hunger strikes and was unfavorably disposed to the idea. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;In the next installment we will look at issues of pay for strike days, teacher’s unions, and contracting out labor.&lt;/span&gt; &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-6006216229400734142?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/6006216229400734142/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=6006216229400734142&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/6006216229400734142'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/6006216229400734142'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/06/halacha-and-organized-labor-part-ii.html' title='Halacha and Organized Labor Part II'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-1167371606830622636</id><published>2008-06-01T21:19:00.003-04:00</published><updated>2008-06-01T21:41:15.377-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='organized labor'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='halacha'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='contemporary issues'/><title type='text'>New Post: Halacha and Organized Labor - Part I</title><content type='html'>&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;    This past week a fellow in our &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;beis medrash&lt;/span&gt; was complaining rather intensely about his run-ins with the labor unions where he works.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I agreed with him that dealing with the unions could be frustrating.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;We nodded in sympathetic unison.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;He then asked: “What gives these people the right to say how this place runs?” &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;    Although it was a rhetorical question, I innocently proffered an unexpected answer: “the Torah.”&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;    He looked at me, confused, and said “Rabbi, with all due respect, what kind of &lt;i&gt;narishkeit&lt;/i&gt; is that?&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Unionized labor is completely &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;goyish&lt;/span&gt;, like lime jello or Barry Manilow &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;goyish&lt;/span&gt;.” While I didn’t point out that Barry Manilow is Jewish, I did offer some background as to the &lt;i&gt;halachic&lt;/i&gt; basis for organized labor.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;    While the fellow said that he understood the basis, he still had a hard time swallowing it.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Like many in our world, my friend (who gave  permission to post about this) harbored the common misconception that Orthodox Judaism = political conservativism.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Truth be told, frumkeit doesn’t even remotely equal any political view out there. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Yet, all too many take the stance that, if it is politically conservative, then it must be kosher.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;This is patently not true.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Oh, well...fodder for a future post.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;      &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;For this post, though, let us stick to organized labor. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;The source for the Torah concept of unionized labor is a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;braisa &lt;/span&gt;found in the Gemora in &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Bava Basra 8b&lt;/span&gt;:&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt; font-style: italic;"&gt;        The inhabitants of a city are entitled to fix the measures, prices, and wages as they see         fit and to enforce them with fines. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt; font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;    Such is the accepted &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halacha &lt;/span&gt;that communal leaders have the authority to regulate certain elements of commerce to assure that the communal economy is prosperous and sustainable. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;Now, in the course of discussion, the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;gemora &lt;/span&gt;also brings the following: &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt; font-style: italic;"&gt;There were these two butchers who made a pact to work on alternating days. If anyone breached the agreement, his hides would be torn [meaning his work would be destroyed]. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Reuven worked on Shimon’s day, and Shimon tore Reuven’s skins. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Rava ruled that Shimon must pay for the damage.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Rav Yemar bar Shalmiya said “but the braisa teaches that people of the city may fix measures, prices, and wages as they see fit and to enforce them with fines.” &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Rava did not reply to this.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Rav Papa said: Rava was correct in not answering.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;When there is a great person (adam gadol) in a city, then the fines must be enacted in front of him.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;        &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;     &lt;/o:p&gt;Now, we have a big problem here. &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;First of all, Rav Yemar argues against Rava, saying that these butchers have the right to regulate elements of commerce and fine transgressors. He learns this rule out from our &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;braisa &lt;/span&gt;on 8b. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;But how is this &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;braisa &lt;/span&gt;a proof to the case of the butchers? The &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;braisa &lt;/span&gt;writes only that the leaders of a community have the right to regulate certain aspects of commerce in their community.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Here, we are talking about members of a common trade, not the population of a city! So, where does it come from that members of a given trade have the ability to regulate their internal practices?&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;The Rosh, writing on this passage of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;gemora &lt;/span&gt;provides an answer for us.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;He explains that people working in a common trade are like a kehila, a community unto themselves, and thus they have the power to regulate their own affairs. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;The Rambam and many other Rishonim &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;pasken &lt;/span&gt;such that tradesman may indeed engage in such regulation  However, they include the condition of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;gemora &lt;/span&gt;on 9a that, should the community have must have an &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halachic &lt;/span&gt;arbitrator, an &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;adam gadol, &lt;/span&gt;then his approval would be needed.  The idea is that the involvement of such a person would balance the interests of the guild or union against those of the general community. Without the approval of such an arbitrator, any conditions made by the union are invalid and unenforceable.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Additionally, there is some dispute amongst the Rishonim as to how many tradesman must be involved in a guild or union to grant the organization regulatory authority.  The general trend in the literature is that the majority of those in a field must agree to the  proposed regulations in order for them to carry any clout. &lt;/p&gt;        &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;The final psak is brought in the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Mishpot &lt;/span&gt;231:28:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt; font-style: italic; text-align: left;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;Members of a common trade are entitled to (Rama – establish decrees regarding their labor, for example:) to set amongst themselves certain days upon which each will work and to punish any who transgress the rule. (Rama – This ability to  establish rules amongst themselves is only when they all agree together.  &lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;/span&gt;However, only two or three cannot set the rule for the many). &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;What is the exact case in which this rule applies? In place where there is not a prominent person serving as an official of the community. &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If there is such an official, then the regulations and punishments must be made through him. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div style="text-align: center;"&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style="text-align: left;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;While the concept of organized labor is firmly established in Jewish law, the modern application of that idea is something else entirely. And so, we are left with many questions. &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Courier New&amp;quot;;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt; For example,  most modern labor unions are non-Jewish entities which, at best, are a partnership between Jews and non-Jews.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;What is the status of such a partnership? Furthermore, what is the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halachic&lt;/span&gt; staus of strikes which, after all, cause losses to employers? While we’re asking about strikes, what is the situation of the strike breaker? Also, is it allowed for union members to impress non-union members into the union? What about those individuals whose professions serve the larger Jewish Community, such as shochtim, or teachers.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Can day-school teachers unionize and go on strikes? Additionally, how the aforementioned question of Rabbinic oversight affect unions today?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;These topics will be adressed in Part II.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; - R' Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 18pt; text-align: center;"&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-1167371606830622636?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/1167371606830622636/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=1167371606830622636&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/1167371606830622636'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/1167371606830622636'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/06/new-post-halacha-and-organized-labor.html' title='New Post: Halacha and Organized Labor - Part I'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-6925040986377927841</id><published>2008-05-23T15:49:00.004-04:00</published><updated>2008-05-23T16:10:37.120-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='chassidus'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Breslov'/><title type='text'>Why Breslov? - Chassidus and Personal Value</title><content type='html'>&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;This post is a new one in response to a recent e-mail.  - Dovid Meisels&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  Last week I posted a comment on a &lt;a href="http://asimplejew.blogspot.com"&gt;friend’s blog&lt;/a&gt; refuting an assertion by another reader.   Part of the refutation was the point that one’s choice of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;derech &lt;/span&gt;is a matter of personal value.  For example, I have learned Chabad, sat in Chabad shiurim, and &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;davened &lt;/span&gt;for a many years at various Chabad houses and institutions.  What did I get from it?  Nothing.   For me, personally, Chabad is empty.  I don’t get a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;hislahavus &lt;/span&gt;or even a “spark” from the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;derech &lt;/span&gt;of Lubavtich.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;   READ CAREFULLY, THOUGH :&lt;/span&gt; These are statements of personal, not universal, value.  While Chabad &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;chassidus &lt;/span&gt;doesn’t stimulate me, I still see its &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;gadlus&lt;/span&gt;.   When I was teaching high school, I encouraged several of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;bochrim &lt;/span&gt;interested in &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;chassidus &lt;/span&gt;to go seek out Chabad.   I thought it as the best &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;derech &lt;/span&gt;for these boys.  Additionally, I am a big fan of the Tanya -  it is one of, if not the, greatest works of chassidus ever produced and one of the finest ever pieces of Torah scholarship.    Everyone should learn it!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  Nevertheless, Chabad is still a mode of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;yiddishket &lt;/span&gt;with which I cannot connect.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  These statements drew a lot of criticism.  I got at least 10 or 15 e-mails saying that my words were divisive and that I had no right to call Chabad worthless.    Obviously, this isn’t what I wrote.  I never said Chabad was worthless.  Rather, Chabad just doesn’t do anything for me.  I acknowledge that, for many others, the Torah of Chabad is &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;shoresh ha-neshoma&lt;/span&gt;.   Another example of the lack of critical reading that goes on in the blogosphere.  Oh well.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; At least one reader, though, did review the post carefully and understood what I was writing.  This woman e-mailed me a with a very poignant question:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;     &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt; I understand that Chabad is not the &lt;/span&gt;derech &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;for you. But what was your positive reason             for choosing Breslov?  It would be interesting to know, just for contrast, just what the             ‘personal value’ is that Breslov holds for you.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now, &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;that &lt;/span&gt;is a good question.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  The answer is: I don’t know.  I think I am a Breslover because something deep down resonates with the Rebbe’s Torah.  The Breslov weltanschauung rests very comfortably with me. Though there are many things that I do not understand in the Rebbe’s teachings, I have enough faith in the Rebbe’s &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;daas &lt;/span&gt;to accept that the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;chesaron &lt;/span&gt;is in my understanding alone.  Yet, these words don’t really answer the question posed above.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  Indeed, it always seems easier to describe a lack of meaning than it does to actually qualify something’s positive personal value. Rabbi Nachman z”l wrote in &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Sichos ha-Ran 1 &lt;/span&gt;that it is impossible to properly communicate that which inspires us from day to day and even moment to moment.   This is because these perceptions of G-dliness come from a place that is beyond words, as Dovid &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;ha-Melech&lt;/span&gt; wrote:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div style="text-align: center;"&gt; כי אני ידעתי כי־גדול י ואדנינו מכל־אלהים&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For I, I know that HaShem is great, and our G-d is above all others.&lt;br /&gt;(Tehillim 135:5)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  The Rebbe explains that in the dual language אני ידעתי,  &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;I, I know...&lt;/span&gt;  Dovid &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;ha-Melech &lt;/span&gt;is emphasizing that this perception of the greatness of G-d is his and his alone.  While Dovid knows this greatness, it cannot be detailed to others.  Such, as the Rebbe explains, is the nature of religious inspiration.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  So, I have to accept as fact that I cannot explain exactly what it is that inspires me about Breslov.  Maybe, I can offer a theory as to why Rabbi Nachman’s Torah captures my heart, yet it is only a theory at best:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  More than the Rebbe’s understanding of G-d, I am impressed by the Rebbe’s understanding of the nature of being human and being a Jew.  Specifically, we all carry internal struggles within ourselves: the struggle against apathy, against sadness, the contradictions and paradoxes between emotions and intellect and love and hate, for example. While difficult by nature for us to open up discuss such matters, the Rebbe delves into them without equivocating.  His direct and practical approach to the problems of being human while simultaneously being  a servant of the Divine is stunning.  While the Rebbe writes about these matters more explicitly in &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Sichos ha-Ran, &lt;/span&gt;I also see them underlying &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Likutey Moharan,&lt;/span&gt; but on a more sophisticated level.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  Coming from an entirely Yekkishe/Oberlanderish background in learning, &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Likutey Moharan&lt;/span&gt; definitely was not my thing. I struggled a lot to understand it.  Several &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Rosh Ha-Shanna&lt;/span&gt;’s ago, I had a late night epiphany which has, for the past several years, guided my learning of the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;sefer&lt;/span&gt;.  As of now, I view &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Likutey Moharan&lt;/span&gt; as an attempt to resolve the trauma of living in a “world of separateness.”  As we know, all things emanate from the essential unity of HaShem, as it says in Tehillim: &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;ain od milvado&lt;/span&gt; - there is nothing other than Him.  Our souls are ultimately rooted in HaShem as is all of creation.  So, at it’s supernal source, all things are really one.  Yet, we live in a world which appears in conflict, where barriers exist between all of its disparate elements.  There is strife, there is difference.  The essential unity is not visible.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  From this dissonance, the conflict between the knowing of the supernal unity of all things in HaShem versus the experience of living in a world of separateness, there emanates a certain amount of common human trauma. Resolving this trauma, piercing the illusions of the “world of separateness” appears to be the goal of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Likutey Moharan&lt;/span&gt;.  In each lesson, the Rebbe begins with the disparate elements of this world.  He finds common features which express some ancient archetype of creation.  These elements, or &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;bechinos &lt;/span&gt;become the factors through which the Rebbe gradually leads these disparate elements them back to their source.  As one learns a teaching, the barriers between various concepts break down.  Multiple ideas become unified as part of a grand, overarching supernal archetype. However, the Rebbe never goes back all the way.  There is a boundary, a limit beyond which words fail.  The biographies of the Rebbe record instances when, during a teaching, the Rebbe would grasp his beard, unable to say anything because there were no words for what came next.   I have thought, yet may be wrong, that the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Sippurey Ma’asios &lt;/span&gt;were intended to express what lies beyond the boundary of words in &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Likutey Moharan&lt;/span&gt;.  The Rebbe himself introduced the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Ma’asios &lt;/span&gt;by saying that, since his teachings were not making the Chassidim into &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;tzadikim&lt;/span&gt;, that he needed to begin telling tales.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All in all, that is about as much as I have to say about why I am a Breslover.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yet, if you ask me in a month you will probably get a different answer.  &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Gut Shabbos!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-6925040986377927841?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/6925040986377927841/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=6925040986377927841&amp;isPopup=true' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/6925040986377927841'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/6925040986377927841'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/05/why-breslov-chassidus-and-personal.html' title='Why Breslov? - Chassidus and Personal Value'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-5973526617584793135</id><published>2008-05-20T22:25:00.004-04:00</published><updated>2008-05-21T07:09:34.753-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='shaimos'/><title type='text'>Ask the Rabbi 2: Shaimos and Wedding Invitations</title><content type='html'>&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Here is another Ask the Rabbi.  Rabbi Bloomenstiel is traveling right now and we are a bit backlogged.    More to come soon. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;- Dovi Meisels&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;QUESTION: &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;B"H&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Dear Rabbi Bloomenstiel,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have received a wedding invitation which includes the word "HaKeil" without a dash between the Aleph and the Lamed.  If this card is ultimately disposed of, should it be placed in sheimos/genizah?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Kol Tuv,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Y&lt;br /&gt;Great Britain&lt;br /&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;&lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;ANSWER:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;The &lt;i style=""&gt;halachos&lt;/i&gt; of &lt;i style=""&gt;shaimos&lt;/i&gt; are derived from the verses of &lt;i style=""&gt;Devarim&lt;/i&gt; 12:3,4 which state:&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"&gt;&lt;span dir="rtl" style=";font-family:David;font-size:100%;color:black;"   lang="HE" &gt; ג&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span dir="rtl" style=";font-family:David;font-size:100%;color:black;"   lang="HE" &gt;: ונתצתם את־מזבחתם ושברתם את־מצבתם ואשריהם תשרפון באש ופסילי אלהיהם תגדעון ואבדתם את־שמם מן־המקום ההוא:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"&gt;&lt;span dir="rtl"  style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span dir="rtl"  style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span dir="rtl" style=";font-family:David;font-size:100%;color:black;"   &gt;&lt;span dir="rtl"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span dir="rtl"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span lang="HE"&gt;ד לא־תעשון כן ליי אלקיכם:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"&gt;&lt;i style=""&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;3. And you shall tear down their altars, smash their monuments, burn their idolotrous trees in fire, chop down the graven images of their gods, and &lt;b style=""&gt;destroy their name from that place.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"&gt;&lt;b style=""&gt;&lt;i style=""&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;4. You shall not do thus to the Lord, your God.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;i style=""&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;    The &lt;i style=""&gt;gemora&lt;/i&gt; in Makkos 22a explains that included in the fourth verse is the prohibition of destroying HaShem’s name.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This prohibition is brought in all of the early &lt;i style=""&gt;halachic&lt;/i&gt; literature and such is the &lt;i style=""&gt;psak&lt;/i&gt; of the Shulchan Aruch in YD 276:9.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;    While there are many names for the Holy One, the specific names to which the prohibition applies are the seven sanctified names enumerated in Shavuos 35a-b: YKVK, Keil, Eloka, Elokim, Shakai, Tzevakos, Adon (note that here I have only used the&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;abbreviated forms of the names). The Shulchan Aruch (ibid.) brings that there are those who are also strict with Ekyah Asher Ekyah as well. These names must be disposed of by placing them in &lt;i style=""&gt;shaimos&lt;/i&gt;. However, all other Hebrew references to HaShem are not true names and may be thrown away.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;These appellations include &lt;i style=""&gt;Chanon, Rachum, HaKasosh Boruch Hu,&lt;/i&gt; and even HaShem.&lt;span style=""&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;However, a direct name of HaShem in another language, such as G-D spelled out in full, may very well require placement in &lt;i style=""&gt;shaimos&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Yet, this is a dispute amongst the &lt;i style=""&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; and there are various understandings.&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" title=""&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[1]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;    The wedding invitation of which you write is a clear case of &lt;i style=""&gt;shaimos&lt;/i&gt; and should be placed in &lt;i style=""&gt;shaimos&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;At a minimum, the Holy names could be cut out and placed in shaimos while the rest of the invitation may be discarded. While there is a significant debate in the &lt;i style=""&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; as to whether the printed name of HaShem is treated with the same severity as a hand written name, the majority conclude that they are treated equally.&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" title=""&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[2]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;    I am surprised to hear that the invitations contained the name of HaShem.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The consensus of most &lt;i style=""&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; is that one should not print &lt;i style=""&gt;pesukim&lt;/i&gt; or other words that could create a &lt;i style=""&gt;shaimos&lt;/i&gt; problems on wedding invitations since they are usually thrown out.&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" title=""&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[3]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/a&gt; Yet, we commonly put &lt;i style=""&gt;kol sasson vekol simcha...etc.&lt;/i&gt; on invitations.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Why is this &lt;i style=""&gt;mutar&lt;/i&gt;?&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;First, there are &lt;i style=""&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; who are lenient with this verse provided it is printed on separate lines.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, Rav Moshe and others doubt the efficacy of multiple lines as a &lt;i style=""&gt;heter&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftn4" name="_ftnref4" title=""&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[4]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/a&gt; A second &lt;i style=""&gt;heter&lt;/i&gt; is to alter the verse slightly by changing a word from singular to plural or altering a case.&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftn5" name="_ftnref5" title=""&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[5]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/a&gt; There are others though, such as Rav Moshe Heinemann&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftn6" name="_ftnref6" title=""&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[6]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;i style=""&gt;shlita&lt;/i&gt;, and the Shevet ha-Levi&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftn7" name="_ftnref7" title=""&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[7]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/a&gt;, who permit the &lt;i style=""&gt;posuk&lt;/i&gt; to be written because is is merely a &lt;i style=""&gt;melitza&lt;/i&gt;, a statement which is not intended or used as a &lt;i style=""&gt;posuk&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, Rav Chaim Kanievsky and other &lt;i style=""&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; disagree&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftn8" name="_ftnref8" title=""&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[8]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/a&gt;. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;- Rabbi Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel&lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;div style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;hr align="left" size="1" width="33%"&gt;  &lt;!--[endif]--&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn1"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 13.5pt; text-indent: -13.5pt;"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" title=""&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[1]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i style=""&gt;Shach &lt;/i&gt;Y.D. 179:11, &lt;i style=""&gt;Pischei Teshuva&lt;/i&gt; 11, 19, &lt;i style=""&gt;Mishnah Berurah&lt;/i&gt; O.C. 85:10, &lt;i style=""&gt;Aruch Ha'shulchan &lt;/i&gt;Y.D. 276, C.M. 27:3&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn2"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 13.5pt; text-indent: -13.5pt;"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" title=""&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[2]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i style=""&gt;Rav Poelim&lt;/i&gt; 2:24, &lt;i style=""&gt;Mishnah Berurah &lt;/i&gt;40:4, &lt;i style=""&gt;Minchas Yitzchok&lt;/i&gt; 1:17:8, &lt;i style=""&gt;Be'er Moshe&lt;/i&gt; 3:174:4, 8:47, &lt;i style=""&gt;Shevet Ha'Levi&lt;/i&gt; Y.D. 5:163, &lt;i style=""&gt;Tzitz Eliezer &lt;/i&gt;3:1&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn3"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 13.5pt; text-indent: -13.5pt;"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" title=""&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[3]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;i style=""&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;Ginzei Hakodesh &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;9:5,&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn4"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 13.5pt; text-indent: -13.5pt;"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftnref4" name="_ftn4" title=""&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[4]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i style=""&gt;Igros Moshe &lt;/i&gt;YD 2:135&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn5"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 13.5pt; text-indent: -13.5pt;"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftnref5" name="_ftn5" title=""&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[5]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i style=""&gt;Halichos Shlomo, Tefilla&lt;/i&gt; 20; &lt;i style=""&gt;Ginzei Hakodesh&lt;/i&gt; 9,&lt;i style=""&gt; ha’ara &lt;/i&gt;18. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn6"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 13.5pt; text-indent: -13.5pt;"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftnref6" name="_ftn6" title=""&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[6]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;According to the the Star-K.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn7"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 13.5pt; text-indent: -13.5pt;"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftnref7" name="_ftn7" title=""&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[7]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i style=""&gt;Shevet ha-Levi&lt;/i&gt; 7:167&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn8"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 13.5pt; text-indent: -13.5pt;"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=5973526617584793135#_ftnref8" name="_ftn8" title=""&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;[8]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:10;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;See &lt;i style=""&gt;Ginzei Hakodesh &lt;/i&gt;265:68&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-5973526617584793135?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/5973526617584793135/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=5973526617584793135&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/5973526617584793135'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/5973526617584793135'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/05/ask-rabbi-2-shaimos-and-wedding.html' title='Ask the Rabbi 2: Shaimos and Wedding Invitations'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-6583126350941484464</id><published>2008-05-18T13:27:00.003-04:00</published><updated>2008-05-18T15:57:15.669-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='ovens'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='halacha'/><title type='text'>Ovens II: Practical Applications</title><content type='html'>&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;Based upon all of these aforementioned factors, the &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; have generally advocated three approaches to using ovens for dairy and meat. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;The most cautious of these is brought in the Chelkas Yaakov 2:136, Minchas Yitzchok 5:20, and the Badei ha-Shulchan 92 who, &lt;i&gt;ab initio&lt;/i&gt;, advocate separate ovens&lt;i&gt;.&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;On the other hand, though, the &lt;i&gt;Aruch ha-Shulchan&lt;/i&gt; allows for the same oven to be used interchangeably for both meat and dairy as long as the oven remains clean.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In practice, I know many &lt;i&gt;rabbonim&lt;/i&gt; who will rely upon the&lt;i&gt; Aruch ha-Shulchan&lt;/i&gt; provided that the oven rests for 24 hours or is kashered between uses.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;A moderate opinion and, perhaps, the most commonly relied upon &lt;i&gt;da’as&lt;/i&gt; in the &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt;, is that of Rav Moshe Feinstein in his &lt;i&gt;Igros Moshe YD I:40&lt;/i&gt;. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;This &lt;i&gt;teshuvah&lt;/i&gt; came about after a colleague of Reb Moshe had thought to permit cooking meat and milk dishes consecutively and uncovered in the same oven for three reasons: &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:14;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;1.&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:7;"  &gt;     &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt;Because of the distance between the food and the interior surface of the oven, any &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; emitted would cool to below &lt;i&gt;yad soledes bo&lt;/i&gt; before it reaches them.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:14;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:14;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:14;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;2.&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:7;"  &gt;     &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt;Our household gas ovens are vented, thus allowing enough of the steam to escape. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:14;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:14;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:14;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;3.&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:7;"  &gt;     &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt;The interior surfaces of the oven are sufficiently hot to either thoroughly desiccate or burn off any remaining material.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:14;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;Reb Moshe felt that these three reasons are not strong enough to create a convincing &lt;i&gt;heter&lt;/i&gt;. Addressing them one-by-one, Reb Moshe derives some practical &lt;i&gt;halachik&lt;/i&gt; directives for using the same oven for both milk and meat. &lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;/span&gt;Here is the bulk of Rav Moshe’s analysis:&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:14;"&gt;Regarding the Gas Oven, Common in Our Areas, &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:14;"&gt;And the Problem of Steam (&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;Zeya&lt;/st1:place&gt;)&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:14;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;Tammuz 14, ‘714 &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;[Thursday July 15&lt;sup&gt;th&lt;/sup&gt;, 1954]&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;To my most honorable friend, Rabbi Chayim Schloss, Shelit”a, &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;Shalom u-veracha, &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in; font-style: italic;"&gt;Regarding the gas oven common in our countries and the problem of zeya when cooking uncovered dairy after having cooked uncovered meat,&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;you wished to permit the food on account of three reasons. However, these reasons are somewhat weak.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;The first rationale is that the distance between the cooking food and the walls of the oven is so much [that the zeya produced would not longer be yad soledes bo by the time it reached the walls or roof of the oven]. This cannot be relied upon.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Even if we measured the distance and were certain that the steam could not be yad soledes bo, this knowledge would only help by a non-hot pot placed above the steam (as discussed by the Rama, Y.D. 92:8).&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In a gas oven though, all of the interior walls and the ceiling are yad soledes bo when the steam reaches there and the steam, in turn, will be heated to yad soledes bo.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;See Rabbi Akiva Eiger&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:12;"  &gt;[1]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; in the name of the Maharai who write about a hot pot becoming osur even if the steam that reaches it is not hot. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;See also in the Pri Megadim M.Z. 92:29.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Additionally, the possibility that the distance between the food and the interior surfaces is so great that the steam cannot travel to the walls is uncertain and difficult to prove.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;            &lt;/span&gt;The second possible reason to permit is that gas ovens have a side-vent for fumes.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I have not seen gas ovens with such a vent.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Even for those gas ovens that do posses a small side-vent, this vent would not help the problem of reicha (see the Shach 108:13)&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:12;"  &gt;[2]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;All the more so zeya would pose a problem and such a vent would be ineffective.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Even if an oven was entirely open, having only a roof and no walls, zeya can ossur if the oven ceiling or the zeya itself is yad soledes bo.&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:12;"  &gt;[3]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The walls of a normal oven could also be affected as the steam rises throughout the oven on its way to the ceiling.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This scenario is learned out from the mishna in Machshirin 2:2 which teaches that all zeya from a tamei bath can render tamei the walls and, eventually, the entire house.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This mishna is the very source for the law of zeya – see the Pri Megadim and the Biurei ha-Gra 39.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Additionally, we can learn from this mishna that it is not possible for all the steam to exit from a small side vent unless the complete side is open; even though the house discussed in our mishna undoubtedly has doorways and openings the mishna is nonetheless concerned about zeya. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in; font-style: italic;"&gt;The possible third reason to permit using an oven for milk and meat dishes cooked uncovered, one-after-another, is that any actual food material left on the interior surfaces of the oven would either be dried out or burned away by the heat.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The only lingering concern would be that of blias, mere absorptions.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Yet, this reasoning is hard to understand since the fundamental issue by zeya is one of blias!&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Actual food material that remains in the oven between cookings must be scrubbed off between uses.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Also, it is hard to say with certainty that any dairy or milk matter that splashed inside the oven would be dried out to the point that the zeya of the second pot couldn’t soften it.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;We likewise cannot rely upon the assumption that any splashed food has been burned up.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The interior surfaces of the oven, being located some distance from the main heat source, usually do not reach temperatures high enough to incinerate anything splashed upon them.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;See Yoreh Deah 92:6 that, even by a pot sitting right against a flame, we do not rely upon the assumption that the fire has burned off any splashes [unless the splashes are small and fall on the side directly in contact with the flame].&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p style="font-style: italic;" class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in; font-style: italic;"&gt;Therefore, if there is zeya it is not permitted to cook meat and dairy, both uncovered, one-after-the-other, for any period of time in the same oven. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;However, I am doubtful if we must be harbor a suspicion for zeya when we have not actually seen any.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;The Rama &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;108:1 writes: “However, if they were roasted one after the other we are not concerned as long as there was no zeya given off from both of them. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;If there is zeya, then the heter is ossur even though they were roasted one after the other [if they were uncovered].”&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This statement implies that, in the absence of proof, we do not suspect there is a zeya problem.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Rather, zeya only becomes an issue when we know for a fact that it is present. However, perhaps in our ovens, which have closed ceilings and walls, zeya is certainly present or at least more likely to be present.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Accordingly, it is proper to be strict and not to cook meat and milk dishes uncovered in the same oven, even one-after-the-other. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in; font-style: italic;"&gt;B’dieved, however, provided that 24 hours have passed and thus rendered pagum any blias involved, the food would be muter since it is a safek. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Regarding the possibility that actual zeya condensed and fell into the food&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftn4" name="_ftnref4" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:12;"  &gt;[4]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;, perhaps the amount that fell in became batel&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftn5" name="_ftnref5" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;b style=""&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:12;"  &gt;[5]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Since this latter possibility also involves a safek, we can therefore construct a safek safeka: 1) Perhaps there was no zeya, and, 2) If there was zeya then perhaps only a minute amount of condensation fell back into the food such that it was batel in 60&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftn6" name="_ftnref6" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:12;"  &gt;[6]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in; font-style: italic;"&gt;Another relevant factor is whether the food being cooked is wet or dry.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In a situation where one is baking or cooking dry matter,&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;the Pri Megadim, Hakdama,, Hanhagos ha-Shoel 2:37 writes that the zeya of solid foods is not prohibited and that there is a side to permit even the zeya of fats that have melted during cooking (this heter is based upon the Rambam, Hilkhot Tumas Ochlin 7:4).&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Yet, this opinion is written only as a possibility. The Pische Teshuva, in quoting the Pri Megadim, also states this heter only as a possibility&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftn7" name="_ftnref7" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:12;"  &gt;[7]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, by a totally dry food there is no doubt that zeya is not an issue.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in; font-style: italic;"&gt;So, it appears, based upon the Pri Megadim, that baking or cooking dry foods one-after-the-other may be permitted even if we see zeya.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Practically speaking, though, when we see zeya it is proper to be strict.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, one does not need to worry initially about zeya by dry foods and may assume that dry foods will not produce zeya.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Therefore one may cook dry foods one-after-the-other and zeya only becomes problematic if one actually sees it. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in; font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;Reb Moshe’s concludes that one may not cook food      containing liquid uncovered, one-after-the-other, in the same oven.  However, one may cook very dry      foods, such as bread, in such a matter and we do not need to worry about &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  Yet&lt;/span&gt;, if you see actually steam shooting out      of the food, then &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; is a problem.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;In a case of covered foods, then there is certainly no issue because there is no problem of zaia.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;div style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;hr align="left" size="1" width="33%"&gt;  &lt;!--[endif]--&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn1"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:10;"  &gt;[1]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; To Y.D. 92:8.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Some, the &lt;i&gt;Yad Yehuda&lt;/i&gt; 92:55 in particular, do not agree with this idea.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn2"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:10;"  &gt;[2]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; Since &lt;i&gt;reicha&lt;/i&gt; is of less significance than &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt;, we can say that if a small vent is ineffective by &lt;i&gt;reicha&lt;/i&gt; then &lt;i&gt;kol she-keyn&lt;/i&gt; it should be ineffective by &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn3"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:10;"  &gt;[3]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; After all, steam rises.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn4"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftnref4" name="_ftn4" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:10;"  &gt;[4]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; There is some disagreement amongst the &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; as to when the concern for condensation applies. Some (i.e. &lt;i&gt;Pri Megadim M.Z.&lt;/i&gt; 92:29, &lt;i&gt;Yad Yehuda&lt;/i&gt; 92:52) hold that condensation is only an issue when we know for a fact that it fell into the food.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Others (i.e. &lt;i&gt;Dagul Mervava 92:8&lt;/i&gt;) maintain that one must assume that condensation fell into the food even if no one actually saw this occur. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn5"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftnref5" name="_ftn5" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:10;"  &gt;[5]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; Similarly, see the &lt;i&gt;Minchas Yitzchok&lt;/i&gt; 5:20;13 quoting the &lt;i&gt;Shu”t Beis ha-Yotzer&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn6"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftnref6" name="_ftn6" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:10;"  &gt;[6]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; An additional leniency is that many authorities consider &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; itself to be only a Rabbinic prohibition. See the &lt;i&gt;Minchas Yitzchok&lt;/i&gt; 5:20;10. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn7"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;amp;postID=6583126350941484464#_ftnref7" name="_ftn7" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:&amp;quot;;font-size:10;"  &gt;[7]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; Many &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt;, most notably the &lt;i&gt;Minchas Yitzchok&lt;/i&gt; and the &lt;i&gt;Darke Teshuvah&lt;/i&gt;,&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;disagree with and reject the possibility that &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; is only applicable to liquids.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, it appears they would agree that the amount of steam produced by solid foods is miniscule enough as to not be a significant factor.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;See &lt;i&gt;Toras Chatas&lt;/i&gt; 35:6 and the &lt;i&gt;Minchas Yaacov&lt;/i&gt; 35:21. This appears to be the general consensus as I have found it. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-6583126350941484464?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/6583126350941484464/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=6583126350941484464&amp;isPopup=true' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/6583126350941484464'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/6583126350941484464'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/05/ovens-ii-practical-applications.html' title='Ovens II: Practical Applications'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-2476989140201831319</id><published>2008-05-15T22:24:00.007-04:00</published><updated>2008-05-16T02:14:50.855-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='kabbalah string'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='darkei ha-emori'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='red string'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='segulos'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Red thread'/><title type='text'>The Red Thread Part II</title><content type='html'>&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;Follow up to &lt;a href="http://sfashanachal.blogspot.com/2008/05/der-roite-bendel-red-thread.html"&gt;this post here...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;A number of readers have inquired as to why R' Bloomenstiel cited the Tosefta Shabbos 7:1 which mentions the red string in connection with &lt;i&gt;darkei ha-Emor&lt;/i&gt;i. As many have rightly pointed out, the Tosefta refers to tying the string about the finger. Additionally, there exists an alternate text of this Tosefta which states "Ein darkei ha-emori,"&lt;i&gt; these are not the ways of the Emorites&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;I forwarded these e-mails to R' Bloomenstiel and received the following response:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;Both of these points about the Tosefta are correct [that it refers only to a red string on the finger and that there is an alternate reading].  Nevertheless, I still cited this Tosefta as a &lt;i&gt;makor&lt;/i&gt; for the following reasons:&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;ul type="disc"&gt;&lt;li class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;The custom of wearing a string on the hand or finger has not been      observed amongst the Jewish people until fairly recently. Yet there was a      prior custom to wrap a read thread from &lt;i&gt;kever &lt;/i&gt;Rachel about the      middle of a woman who wants to conceive or is expecting. If there was a      prior accepted practice of wearing red threads about the hand or finger,      then I would assume that the correct &lt;i&gt;girsa &lt;/i&gt;of the Tosefta is "&lt;i&gt;ain      darkei ho-emori.&lt;/i&gt;" However, we have no such prior custom.      Therefore, there is no proof either way as to the correct &lt;i&gt;girsa&lt;/i&gt;.      Yet, since many other items in the &lt;i&gt;tosefta &lt;/i&gt;are treated as&lt;i&gt; darkei      ha-Emori &lt;/i&gt;in parallel sources and, since we are dealing with &lt;i&gt;d'oraisa &lt;/i&gt;issues,      it is difficult to rely upon the more lenient text.&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;  &lt;ul type="disc"&gt;&lt;li class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;We must understand the boundaries of the Tosefta's prohibition.      Perhaps the Tosefta only prohibits wearing a red string about the finger.      On the other hand, wearing a red string as a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;segula &lt;/span&gt;may be a general      prohibition. Perhaps the &lt;i&gt;tosefta &lt;/i&gt;only chose the finger as its      example because such was the prevalent way of wearing a red string at      the time of the Tosefta.&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;  &lt;ul type="disc"&gt;&lt;li class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;I have seen and heard the common version of the Tosefta ( "&lt;i&gt;darkei ha-Emori&lt;/i&gt;") quoted in &lt;i&gt;teshuvos &lt;/i&gt;and &lt;i&gt;piskei      halacha&lt;/i&gt;. For example, one of our readers e-mailed me that Rav Hershel      Schachter relies upon our girsa to pronounce the strings as &lt;i&gt;ossur d'oraisa&lt;/i&gt;.  This is also the understanding of Rav Y.S. Eliashiv as well.  &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;  &lt;ul type="disc"&gt;&lt;li class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;Even without the &lt;i&gt;tosefta &lt;/i&gt;as an &lt;i&gt;asmachta (&lt;/i&gt;or proof)      one can still make an argument that the bendel is &lt;i&gt;darkei ha-Emori.&lt;/i&gt;      It is too long to get into here, but from the &lt;i&gt;Teshuvos ha-Rashba&lt;/i&gt; it      appears to me that there are two species of &lt;i&gt;segulos&lt;/i&gt;. The first are      remedies that operate via natural, yet mysterious mechanisms.  The Rashba uses      magnets as an example. In his time everyone knew that magnets repel and retract other metals, yet no one knew why. See also the &lt;i&gt;gemora &lt;/i&gt;in      Shabbos 67a and Chullin 77b which distinguishes between &lt;i&gt;segulos &lt;/i&gt;that      operate via natural (yet mysterious) mechanisms and those that are      "mystical" or “magical," which are &lt;i&gt;darkei ha-Emori.&lt;/i&gt;      The second type of &lt;i&gt;segula &lt;/i&gt;is an action or item which invokes a      specific &lt;i&gt;hashgocha pratis. &lt;/i&gt;An example of this would be the&lt;i&gt;      nachash ha-nechoshes&lt;/i&gt; which healed the Jews from the poisonous      serpents. See Rashi on Bamidbar 21:8 who writes that the serpent didn’t      heal, rather it brought people close to &lt;i&gt;HaShem&lt;/i&gt; and He healed them      as a result. Eventually, the serpent came to be worshiped.  The populace attributed its powers of healing      to the serpent itself rather than to HaShem.  In reaction, the serpent was      then destroyed by Chizkiyah &lt;i&gt;ha-melech.&lt;/i&gt;  So the question is: how do      we tell the difference between a &lt;i&gt;segula &lt;/i&gt;which invokes &lt;i&gt;hasgocha &lt;/i&gt;and      one that is &lt;i&gt;darkei ha-Emori&lt;/i&gt;? It seems to me that the difference is      that a &lt;i&gt;hasgocha&lt;/i&gt;-based &lt;i&gt;segula &lt;/i&gt;is one from which we have a &lt;i&gt;mesora      &lt;/i&gt;from the &lt;i&gt;rabbonim &lt;/i&gt;or &lt;i&gt;daas Torah&lt;/i&gt;. After all, the &lt;i&gt;nachoshes      &lt;/i&gt;was transmitted to us by Moshe &lt;i&gt;Rabbeinu&lt;/i&gt;. So, it appears that      any &lt;i&gt;segula &lt;/i&gt;or charm operating by "mystical" or      "metaphysical" properties and for which we do not have a valid &lt;i&gt;mesora      &lt;/i&gt;must be suspect. Now, there was never a rabbinic or Torah-based &lt;i&gt;mesora      &lt;/i&gt;for wearing a red thread about the hand, wrist, or finger as a &lt;i&gt;segula&lt;/i&gt;.      The closest mention of such a thing is wearing a red thread about the      finger-- yet this practice is identified as &lt;i&gt;darkei ha-Emori &lt;/i&gt;by the      Tosefta! This fact, combined with the evidence that it was worn by      non-Jews long before Jews took on the practice, points strongly to &lt;i&gt;darkei      ha-Emori.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;br /&gt;   - Avi Bloomenstiel&lt;/i&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family:Georgia;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-2476989140201831319?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/2476989140201831319/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=2476989140201831319&amp;isPopup=true' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/2476989140201831319'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/2476989140201831319'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/05/red-thread-part-ii.html' title='The Red Thread Part II'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-5750222951916222101</id><published>2008-05-14T23:29:00.003-04:00</published><updated>2008-05-14T23:50:00.079-04:00</updated><title type='text'>Ovens I - Halachic Fundamentals</title><content type='html'>&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Introduction&lt;/b&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;The &lt;i&gt;Shulchan Aruch&lt;/i&gt; presents an array of &lt;i&gt;halachos&lt;/i&gt; that affect how we use ovens for meat and dairy foods.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The diversity of the material, however, makes it a challenge to derive practical guidelines for the ovens of today.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The goal of this two-part series on ovens is to examine the fundamental &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;halachic &lt;/span&gt;principles involved and how &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; have dealt with ovens in recent times&lt;a style="" href="#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[1]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; .&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;      &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;Foundational Principles&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;      &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;In the &lt;i&gt;Sheelot u-Teshuvot&lt;/i&gt; literature the &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; adopt a three-part approach to deriving the &lt;i&gt;halacha le-ma’aseh&lt;/i&gt;: 1) &lt;i&gt;Metzius&lt;/i&gt; – the physical qualities of the oven, 2) &lt;i&gt;Reicha&lt;/i&gt; – the question of aroma, and 3) &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Zeya&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt; – the issue of steam.&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 84.75pt; text-indent: -48.75pt;"&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;1)&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"&gt;                          &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Metzius&lt;/i&gt; – The &lt;i&gt;Shulchan Aruch&lt;/i&gt;, in presenting its rulings on ovens, tries to be as inclusive as possible with when it comes to oven designs and function, mentioning many different physical qualities ovens may possess (i.e. open, closed, vented, large, small, etc.). The first challenge is to determine the status of modern gas and electric ovens.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Most &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; agree that our households ovens are considered “small&lt;a style="" href="#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[2]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;” and, though somewhat vented, “closed” for most purposes&lt;a style="" href="#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[3]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;These designations do not allow us many of the leniencies attributed by the &lt;i&gt;Shulchan Aruch&lt;/i&gt; to “large” or “open” ovens. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 84.75pt; text-indent: -48.75pt;"&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;2)&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"&gt;                          &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Reicha&lt;/i&gt; – In &lt;i&gt;Pesachim&lt;/i&gt; 76b the &lt;i&gt;gemora&lt;/i&gt; examines the case of non-kosher and kosher meat roasted together, albeit with out touching, in the same oven.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;According to Rav the aroma of the non-kosher meat has the power to &lt;i&gt;assur&lt;/i&gt; the kosher meat.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;According to Levi, &lt;i&gt;reicha lav milsa hi&lt;/i&gt;, aroma is insignificant.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;Rif&lt;/st1:place&gt; and Rambam &lt;i&gt;pasken&lt;/i&gt; like Levi, however with the limitation that Levi is only speaking &lt;i&gt;b’dieved&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i&gt;Le-chatchilah&lt;/i&gt; Levi and Rav would agree that we should worry about &lt;i&gt;reicha&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The &lt;i&gt;Mechaber&lt;/i&gt;, Y.D. 108:1, &lt;i&gt;paskens&lt;/i&gt; like the Rambam and &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;Rif&lt;/st1:place&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The &lt;i&gt;Rama&lt;/i&gt;, though agreeing Levi’s opinion is the fundamental one, nonetheless includes a number of stringencies in his &lt;i&gt;psak&lt;/i&gt; that acknowledge concern for the position of Rav.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Generally, &lt;i&gt;reicha&lt;/i&gt; is only a concern when cooking two uncovered dishes simultaneously in an oven.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;According to all, such an arrangement would be prohibited &lt;i&gt;le-chatchilah&lt;/i&gt;. Yet, &lt;i&gt;reicha&lt;/i&gt; also has an indirect impact upon the &lt;i&gt;halachos&lt;/i&gt; of &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Though &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; is the stricter of the two, &lt;i&gt;reicha&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; still have much in common.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; use this fact to make several &lt;i&gt;kol she-keyns&lt;/i&gt;, saying “since &lt;i&gt;reicha&lt;/i&gt; is a problem in this scenario, then &lt;i&gt;kol she-keyn&lt;/i&gt; so is &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt;.”&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 84.75pt; text-indent: -48.75pt;"&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;3)&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"&gt;                          &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Zeya&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt; – The law of &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; is derived by the &lt;i&gt;Rosh&lt;a style="" href="#_ftn4" name="_ftnref4" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;b style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[4]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt; from the &lt;i&gt;mishna&lt;/i&gt; in &lt;i&gt;Machshirin&lt;/i&gt; 2:2.&lt;a style="" href="#_ftn5" name="_ftnref5" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[5]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This &lt;i&gt;mishna&lt;/i&gt; teaches that the steam from a &lt;i&gt;tamei&lt;/i&gt; bath is also &lt;i&gt;tamei&lt;/i&gt; and has the power to &lt;i&gt;metamei&lt;/i&gt; an entire house. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;From here we see that steam retains the qualities of its source.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Therefore, the steam emitted from milk, for example, retains a dairy status.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Surprisingly, &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; is not mentioned on &lt;i&gt;Pesachim&lt;/i&gt; 76b, which prohibits cooking &lt;i&gt;treif&lt;/i&gt; and kosher together in the same oven due to &lt;i&gt;reicha&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This apparent omission begs to be explained.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;There are six main answers proposed by the &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt;, all of which deeply influence the practical &lt;i&gt;halachos&lt;/i&gt; of today’s ovens&lt;a style="" href="#_ftn6" name="_ftnref6" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[6]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1.25in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Wingdings;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;§&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"&gt;        &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Rosh&lt;a style="" href="#_ftn7" name="_ftnref7" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;b style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[7]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt; – &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Zeya&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt; cannot affect a hot surface, only a cool surface.&lt;a style="" href="#_ftn8" name="_ftnref8" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[8]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;After all, the &lt;i&gt;mishnaic&lt;/i&gt; source deals with hot &lt;i&gt;tamei&lt;/i&gt; steam contaminating the cool walls of a house.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i&gt;Pesachim&lt;/i&gt; 76b, however, is discussing a case where everything is hot.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 14pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1.25in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 14pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Wingdings;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;§&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"&gt;        &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Chavas Da’as, Biurim&lt;/i&gt; 92:26 – &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Zeya&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt; is only a problem when cooking one food above another. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Zeya&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt;, because it rises upward, does not have the ability to act horizontally.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The case in the &lt;i&gt;gemora&lt;/i&gt; is one of two items roasted side-by-side. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 14pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1.25in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 14pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Wingdings;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;§&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"&gt;        &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Pri Megadim, Hanhagos Hora’a Issur ve-Heter&lt;/i&gt; 2:37 – only steam that emerges from liquids has the power to carry over the qualities of its parent substance.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Steam that emerges from solids does not have this power&lt;a style="" href="#_ftn9" name="_ftnref9" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[9]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The &lt;i&gt;gemora’s&lt;/i&gt; case was one of roasting solids while the &lt;i&gt;mishna’s&lt;/i&gt; case was one of liquids.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 14pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1.25in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 14pt;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Wingdings;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;§&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"&gt;         &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Aruch ha-Shulchan&lt;/i&gt; 92:55 – &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Zeya&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt; is only problematic in a small, closed oven. In an open or large oven we don’t worry about it. &lt;i&gt;Reicha&lt;/i&gt;, however, has broader applications and would even apply in a large oven. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i&gt;Pesachim&lt;/i&gt; 76b is describing kosher and &lt;i&gt;treif&lt;/i&gt; cooked in an open or large area; &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; is not an issue, but &lt;i&gt;reicha&lt;/i&gt; is. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1.25in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Wingdings;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;§&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"&gt;         &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Mishkenos Yaacov&lt;/i&gt; Y.D. 34 – The &lt;i&gt;Mishkenos Yaacov&lt;/i&gt; takes a surprising view and disagrees with the whole &lt;i&gt;inyan&lt;/i&gt; of &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;He maintains that &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; is not significant and poses no &lt;i&gt;halachik&lt;/i&gt; issue.&lt;a style="" href="#_ftn10" name="_ftnref10" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[10]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1.25in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Wingdings;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;§&lt;span style="font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"&gt;        &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Igros Moshe Y.D&lt;/i&gt;. I:40 – Assuming that the steam of solid foods can take-on qualities of its parent substance, Rav Moshe applies the &lt;i&gt;Pri Megadim&lt;/i&gt;’s opinion to create an interesting leniency.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In the case of liquids or wet foods we must assume that &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; is present and a problem. However, by solid dry food we do not assume that &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; is a problem unless we know for a fact that it is present&lt;a style="" href="#_ftn11" name="_ftnref11" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[11]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In the &lt;i&gt;gemora&lt;/i&gt;, we assume that no one actually saw &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; coming out of the roasting solid foods and, therefore, nothing was prohibited on its account.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1.25in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Next Post: Ovens Part II - Contemporary Teshuvos&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;div style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  &lt;hr align="left" size="1" width="33%"&gt;  &lt;!--[endif]--&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn1"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[1]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; The first successful gas stove/oven was patented by British inventor James Sharp in 1826.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It wasn’t until the late 1920’s that the oven had become common in most households.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The electric stove/oven was invented in 1891 by the Carpenter Electric Heating Manufacturing Co. By the 1930’s the electric oven was becoming standard and giving the Gas oven some stiff competition.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The sheelos&lt;i&gt; u-teshovos&lt;/i&gt; that apply to our ovens are almost all post-1950, when both gas and electric ovens developed into what is, generally, their present forms. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn2"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[2]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; The &lt;i&gt;Binas Adam 62;81&lt;/i&gt; cites two opinions as to what constitutes a “large” oven.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Some define “large” as having an internal surface area of about 68 square &lt;i&gt;amos&lt;/i&gt; (approximately 256 – 270 square feet).&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Others define “large” ovens as having an interior volume of 600 cubic &lt;i&gt;tefachim&lt;/i&gt; (about 21 or 22 cubic feet).&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Our household ovens fall short of both sizes and must be considered “small.” &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn3"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[3]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; &lt;i&gt;Shach&lt;/i&gt; 108:3. The &lt;i&gt;Shach&lt;/i&gt; maintains that &lt;i&gt;reicha&lt;/i&gt; remains a problem unless the oven is completely open.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;There are many circumstances however, when the vents of our ovens does serve as a &lt;i&gt;kula&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;We will discuss these situations in subsequent issues. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;    &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn4"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="#_ftnref4" name="_ftn4" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[4]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; &lt;i&gt;Teshuvos ha-Rosh&lt;/i&gt; 20:26.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn5"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="#_ftnref5" name="_ftn5" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[5]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; Incidentally, the Vilna Gaon apparently disagrees with the Rosh’s derivation.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;See the &lt;i&gt;Biur ha-Gra&lt;/i&gt; 92:39 where he offers a different source for the law of &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt;. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn6"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="#_ftnref6" name="_ftn6" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[6]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; There is also much discussion about whether &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; is a &lt;i&gt;din d’rabanon&lt;/i&gt; or &lt;i&gt;d’oraisa&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;See &lt;i&gt;Yebai Omer&lt;/i&gt;, Y.D. 5:7 and the &lt;i&gt;Minchas Yitzchok&lt;/i&gt; 5:20&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn7"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="#_ftnref7" name="_ftn7" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[7]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; Ibid. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn8"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="#_ftnref8" name="_ftn8" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[8]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; Similar opinions are mentioned in the &lt;i&gt;Beis Shlomo&lt;/i&gt; Y.D. 162 and the &lt;i&gt;Yad Yehuda&lt;/i&gt; 55.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;See also the &lt;i&gt;Minchas Yitzchok&lt;/i&gt; 5:20; 11.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn9"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="#_ftnref9" name="_ftn9" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[9]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; This famous &lt;i&gt;heter&lt;/i&gt; is strongly debated by the &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Some, like the &lt;i&gt;Aruch ha-Shulchan&lt;/i&gt; 92:54 and the &lt;i&gt;Chelkas Yaacov 2:136&lt;/i&gt;, reject it totally.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Others use it as a mitigating factor to create other &lt;i&gt;kula’s&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The &lt;i&gt;Darke Teshuva&lt;/i&gt; has an interesting approach, concluding that &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; by liquids is a &lt;i&gt;din d’oraisa&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;zeya&lt;/i&gt; by solids is a &lt;i&gt;din d’rabbanon&lt;/i&gt;. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn10"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="#_ftnref10" name="_ftn10" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[10]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; This is the most extreme of the six &lt;i&gt;shitot&lt;/i&gt; and appears to be unique to the &lt;i&gt;Mishkenos Yaacov&lt;/i&gt; alone. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;div style="" id="ftn11"&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoFootnoteText"&gt;&lt;a style="" href="#_ftnref11" name="_ftn11" title=""&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportFootnotes]--&gt;&lt;span class="MsoFootnoteReference"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;"&gt;[11]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; This is like the &lt;i&gt;psak&lt;/i&gt; of the &lt;i&gt;Darcei Teshuvah&lt;/i&gt; 108:49 in the name of the &lt;i&gt;Yad Yehudah&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;  &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-5750222951916222101?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/5750222951916222101/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=5750222951916222101&amp;isPopup=true' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/5750222951916222101'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/5750222951916222101'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/05/ovens-i-halachic-fundamentals.html' title='Ovens I - Halachic Fundamentals'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-4238560448735061384</id><published>2008-05-11T17:14:00.006-04:00</published><updated>2008-05-11T19:20:42.119-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='modernity'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Moral issues'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='charedi'/><title type='text'>Some Thoughts on Charedi Moral Authority and Technology...</title><content type='html'>&lt;object width="320" height="266" class="BLOG_video_class" id="BLOG_video-a41bda0d0e26dfe1" classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"&gt;&lt;param name="movie" value="http://www.blogger.com/img/videoplayer.swf?videoUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fvp.video.google.com%2Fvideodownload%3Fversion%3D0%26secureurl%3DqAAAAP0YN7YpWvFNWPjMMOzGjlXxg8V_T6JKhd__-5Ne2WyQd2VC5-jdo_FZCt7TXKuxc3QXMNKlUKMFZ2bDKikl8zhlpmXurzsJGYpWbNbJL0aypaiXIhrW7ZcC2ieRk3vy-q9qsEcj3XjVviiGwVAodslDBCAnU-GZTQQ1AMqsEvcnv66lFReKqHud2jUDlql2W2q__r5McD1AHq_ZFXZH4j1Lvl8bIv4ByBxy28hh4m6s%26sigh%3D0tWIa2iD3u8MIdOgcWNRyj0edi8%26begin%3D0%26len%3D86400000%26docid%3D0&amp;amp;nogvlm=1&amp;amp;thumbnailUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2FThumbnailServer2%3Fapp%3Dblogger%26contentid%3Da41bda0d0e26dfe1%26offsetms%3D5000%26itag%3Dw320%26sigh%3DcF2S83ub-8R7UR65DWUgiJHenf8&amp;amp;messagesUrl=video.google.com%2FFlashUiStrings.xlb%3Fframe%3Dflashstrings%26hl%3Den"&gt;&lt;param name="bgcolor" value="#FFFFFF"&gt;&lt;embed width="320" height="266" src="http://www.blogger.com/img/videoplayer.swf?videoUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fvp.video.google.com%2Fvideodownload%3Fversion%3D0%26secureurl%3DqAAAAP0YN7YpWvFNWPjMMOzGjlXxg8V_T6JKhd__-5Ne2WyQd2VC5-jdo_FZCt7TXKuxc3QXMNKlUKMFZ2bDKikl8zhlpmXurzsJGYpWbNbJL0aypaiXIhrW7ZcC2ieRk3vy-q9qsEcj3XjVviiGwVAodslDBCAnU-GZTQQ1AMqsEvcnv66lFReKqHud2jUDlql2W2q__r5McD1AHq_ZFXZH4j1Lvl8bIv4ByBxy28hh4m6s%26sigh%3D0tWIa2iD3u8MIdOgcWNRyj0edi8%26begin%3D0%26len%3D86400000%26docid%3D0&amp;amp;nogvlm=1&amp;amp;thumbnailUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2FThumbnailServer2%3Fapp%3Dblogger%26contentid%3Da41bda0d0e26dfe1%26offsetms%3D5000%26itag%3Dw320%26sigh%3DcF2S83ub-8R7UR65DWUgiJHenf8&amp;amp;messagesUrl=video.google.com%2FFlashUiStrings.xlb%3Fframe%3Dflashstrings%26hl%3Den" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"&gt;&lt;/embed&gt;&lt;/object&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;    A friend forwarded me this commercial a few months ago. After viewing it for the first time, I sat dumbfounded and open-mouthed for about 90 seconds.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Was I supposed to be offended?&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Was I supposed to laugh?&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Should I write a letter to someone protesting this, a commercial whose entire gimmick revolves around people who look like me protesting?&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;    For the next several days this advertisement haunted me.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;I couldn’t get it out of my head.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;    Now to shift gears.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;When I was learning in &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;Israel&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt; I was an outsider with a party line. I was an American Yeshiva &lt;i&gt;bochur&lt;/i&gt; supporting the &lt;i&gt;charedi&lt;/i&gt; camp, yet not fully integrated into the complex web of politics/religion/power that is &lt;i&gt;yiddishkeit&lt;/i&gt; in the &lt;i&gt;medina&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;After a few months, I recognized that the clashes between religious and non-religious were not isolated events, but rather symptoms of a constant psychological tension churning just beneath the surface of “Israeli” society.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;      &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;    &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;Because I was firmly in one of the categories (“&lt;i&gt;charedi&lt;/i&gt;”) my objectivity was severely limited.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Nevertheless, I wanted to understand the pathology of the conflict.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If I understood the tensions, the fears of both sides, then perhaps I could use this understanding as a tool for &lt;i&gt;kiruv&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;However, it was almost impossible to have an open discussion with anyone about the conflict.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Both sides have deep issues with each other, yet they deal with the problems via a veil of intractable silence.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;It is like two brothers with long unsettled grudges who must now share a flat.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;They avoid the tough issues, dancing around them as a matter of practicality, until they can keep silent no longer.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Then temperatures rise and things boil over.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;A few days later, they are back to status quo without having resolved anything.&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt; In 2003 Noah Efron, a professor at Bar Ilan, published his book&lt;i&gt; Real Jews. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Secular academics are not usually the authors to whom I gravitate, but this book caught my interest.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i&gt;Real Jews&lt;/i&gt; is a pretty even-handed and frank (if not wholly unnerving) exploration of &lt;i&gt;chareidi/chilloni&lt;/i&gt; tensions in &lt;i&gt;Eretz Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;What emerges from his account is much like my experience: the religious and secular worlds are separate universes wholly out of touch. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;However, each group believes that its understanding of the other is correct and resents the other based upon that belief.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Efron traces the current dynamic to some terrific political miscalculations in the early days of the medina.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Assuming that the orthodox Jewish population would eventually dwindle and disappear, the early Zionist leaders granted &lt;i&gt;charedim&lt;/i&gt; powers and concessions to garner their support in the creation of an essentially secular state.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, we haven’t disappeared.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Over the past 6 decades, as we have grown, our relationship with secular Israeli society has become exceptionally convoluted.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The result is a pathology of constant identity crisis/paranoia for both secular and religious Jews.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This crisis is smeared across questions of national identity, religion, diet (kashrus), businesses (closed on Shabbos), and public transportation (Shabbos, separate seating on buses for men and women, etc).&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Efron also addresses the secular perception of the &lt;i&gt;charedi&lt;/i&gt; world as medieval, backward, and sinister. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Although he touches upon it, I would have liked to have seen &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;more about how the non-religious perceive &lt;i&gt;charedi&lt;/i&gt; attitudes toward technology and scientific progress.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Internally, we know that we are not technophobes.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Nobody in the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;frum velt&lt;/span&gt; would assign himself such a label.   We merely advocate responsible use of technology.  Unfortunately, the rhetoric we employ is often misleading.     I remember a &lt;i&gt;shmuz&lt;/i&gt; from Yeshiva when one of my &lt;i&gt;rebbeim&lt;/i&gt; spent 45 minutes blasting the microchip as a tool of the &lt;i&gt;yetzer hora&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;All of the evils of today’s youth, he said, can be traced to electronics which have “distracted and drawn them away from the &lt;i&gt;derech ho-emes.”&lt;/i&gt; What do all of these inventions have in common?&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The “maykro-tzip” which was “invented by atheists, by baboons in the shape of men who are devoid of wisdom and G-dliness.”&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;He concluded that people should avoid their evil handiwork at all costs.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;As I left the &lt;i&gt;shiur&lt;/i&gt;, I made a point of asking this Rabbi how he had been feeling since his bypass operation and pace-maker installation.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;He responded “it is &lt;i&gt;k’mo nes&lt;/i&gt; [like a miracle].”&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt; This point now takes us back to the commercial.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;As I said, I couldn’t get it out of my head and finally realized why: it is simply brilliant advertising.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Whoever created this ad has put their finger right on the nerve of… well… something.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt; For the past several years we have seen a “banning trend.”&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Banned cell phones, banned internet, banned computers, banned PDA’s, etc. &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Recently, a colleague in my community announced in his&lt;i&gt; shabbos drosha &lt;/i&gt;that blogs were &lt;i&gt;assur&lt;/i&gt; and banned.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;What emerges from these bans is an aura of technophobia.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Regardless of whether or not we, the religious, are technophobes, such is the perception.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And, as such, we are reinforcing one of the stereotypes which alienate us from the non-religious: that of the medieval, superstitious, backward &lt;i&gt;shtetl&lt;/i&gt; dweller.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;In many ways, publicly banning new technologies does as much for our image in the eyes of the &lt;i&gt;chillonim&lt;/i&gt; as would us explaining away electricity as magic or sorcery.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Now, for those of you who like to post comments without reading carefully or investing much critical thought, note this: I don’t disagree with most of these bans. &lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;My concern is that we have publicly over-invested our moral authority in issues that only alienate and contort our mission and ideals in the eyes of the non-religious.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;As a consequence, we are suffering from a sort of “moral inflation” to the point where proclamations of right and wrong from the religious Jewish world carry zero value amongst the non-religious.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Perhaps we need to place our public zeal behind issues which carry more universal Jewish relevance: caring for our children, combating domestic violence, drug abuse issues, etc. In these areas we can be &lt;i&gt;mekarev&lt;/i&gt; the non-religious.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;In these areas we can agree with them and show them the positive value that our hashkofos and way of life have to offer.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Perhaps we should move away from negatively asserting our identity and instead focus on creating a positive identity.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Jews are compared to letters in the &lt;i&gt;sefer Torah. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Yet, by defining our identity via negation it is as if we have poured ink onto klaf and are now scratching away the surrounding ink to create our letters. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;However, a &lt;i&gt;sefer Torah&lt;/i&gt; written in this manner is &lt;i&gt;posul&lt;/i&gt; on account of &lt;i&gt;chok tochos&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;The letters must be written in a positive fashion to be kosher.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The commercial successfully taps into and provides a release for secular frustration with many of the  issues describe by Efron.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It also fires an arrow into perceived &lt;i&gt;charedi&lt;/i&gt; technophobia.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;To the non-religious, our perceived opposition to technological innovation (or innovation as a whole) has become a routine, a song-and-dance.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i&gt;Hafganos&lt;/i&gt; have become choreographed, costumed displays of righteous fervor and histrionic sobbing (see the commercial at 35 seconds in) over issues which the secular public perceives as trivial.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In deconstructing this video, we also see that there is a suspicion of insincerity.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The zeal of the &lt;i&gt;charedim&lt;/i&gt; is viewed as a front which may hide or compensate for something else in a sexually repressed culture (hence the use of the Village People’s YMCA as the soundtrack).&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;All of these perceptions and paranoias are part and parcel of the non-religious fear of the &lt;i&gt;charedi&lt;/i&gt; world.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt; And here, someone has tapped into these demons which lie beneath the surface and channeled that energy into selling HD-TV.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Brilliant advertising.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt; The real punchline of all of this was the &lt;i&gt;charedi&lt;/i&gt; reaction: protest.  In fact, so much protest that the commercial was eventually pulled.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So, we protested a commercial criticizing our&lt;i&gt; &lt;/i&gt;protesting.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;What is more, as an Israeli non-religious neighbor pointed out, secular Jews will ask: “How do &lt;i&gt;charedim&lt;/i&gt; know about this commercial?”&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;They will assume that someone in our world saw it on television. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;This assumption will only strengthen the suspicion of insincerity and hypocrisy. &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Perhaps righteous indignation was not the best instant response.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Just to reiterate: I don’t disagree with most of the bans or protests. Should TV in the home be opposed? Yes!&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Should we make people aware of the dangers of the internet? Yes!&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Should these issues be those in which we invest the bulk of our &lt;i&gt;hislahavus&lt;/i&gt; and zeal? Should we define our Judaism in terms of protest and negation rather than positive assertions? Perhaps not.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-4238560448735061384?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='enclosure' type='video/mp4' href='http://www.blogger.com/video-play.mp4?contentId=a41bda0d0e26dfe1&amp;type=video%2Fmp4' length='0'/><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/4238560448735061384/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=4238560448735061384&amp;isPopup=true' title='4 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/4238560448735061384'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/4238560448735061384'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/05/some-thoughts-on-charedi-moral.html' title='Some Thoughts on Charedi Moral Authority and Technology...'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>4</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-201558132872837909</id><published>2008-05-05T02:36:00.007-04:00</published><updated>2008-12-10T21:31:11.734-05:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='kabbalah string'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='darkei ha-emori'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='red string'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='kabbalah thread'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Red thread'/><title type='text'>Der Roite Bendel: The Red Thread</title><content type='html'>&lt;a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5Wfsa8XbBuM/SB9RIg1ioaI/AAAAAAAAABI/gPHvA38G5y0/s1600-h/red_linen_thread.jpg"&gt;&lt;img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 273px; height: 206px;" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5Wfsa8XbBuM/SB9RIg1ioaI/AAAAAAAAABI/gPHvA38G5y0/s320/red_linen_thread.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5196961701704147362" border="0" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;First in our Ask the Rabbi Series:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;Q: I was recently in Yerushalayim and gave &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;"&gt;tzedaka &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;to a woman at the Kotel.   She insisted that I give her my hand, which I did, and she then tied on a red thread about my wrist to "ward off the &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;"&gt;eyin hora&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;."  What is the source of this custom and where can I find more information on it?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- Alyssa&lt;br /&gt;Montreal, Canada&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A:  This question comes up a few times each year and, unfortunately, the answer usually surprises: there is no source for it.  I have combed the kabbalistic writings and cannot find anything that supports or endorses wearing a red string as a valid &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;segula&lt;/span&gt;.   In the more recent literature, I have only found two passing mentions of the thread.   In the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;sefer Beer Moshe&lt;/span&gt;, Rov Stern mentions a custom in his father's home of winding a red thread about the crib of a newborn for protection.  Similarly, the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;sefer Yesod Likra Ohel Rachel Imenu&lt;/span&gt; of the Apta rov also associates this custom with the protection of a newborn and Rachel Imenu.  Yet, the Apta Rov also writes that he  heard there were those in Jerusalem who wore red strings for all sorts of protections.  Beyond these two &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;seforim&lt;/span&gt;, there is no source for the custom of wearing a red thread about the wrist as a &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;segula&lt;/span&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One may think, then, that the "roite bendel" (as it is called in Yiddish) should at least be permitted as an "old wives' custom."  The &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Teshuvos ha-Rashba&lt;/span&gt; addresses such baseless practices and states that they should not be opposed provided that there is some rationale and that the custom is not problematic.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But, the red string &lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;is &lt;/span&gt;problematic. Very, very problematic.  The &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Tosefta &lt;/span&gt;in &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Maseches Shabbos&lt;/span&gt; 7:1  states explicitly that a red thread worn about the hand or finger is prohibited as  &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;darkei ha-Emori&lt;/span&gt;. This would mean, according to most &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;poskim, &lt;/span&gt;that wearing such a thread may be an &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;issur d'oraisa&lt;/span&gt; akin to &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;avoda zara. &lt;/span&gt;In fact, many cultures and religions share the concept of &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;eyin ha-ra &lt;/span&gt;and, likewise, have superstitious charms and protections against it.   In India and in Buddhist countries it is quite common that people even wear red strings on their wrists to protect against the "evil eye!"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Granted, the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Tosefta &lt;/span&gt;may be speaking of something other wearing it specifically about the wrist.   Others may argue from the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Beis Yoseif&lt;/span&gt; that we do not &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;pasken &lt;/span&gt;like this &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Tosefta &lt;/span&gt;since it is not cited by the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Bavli&lt;/span&gt;.   Additionally, there are &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;pesukim &lt;/span&gt;which mention tying a read thread or that associate red cloth with protection.  In &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Bereishis &lt;/span&gt;38 we find that a red thread was tied about the wrist of Zerach as an identifier.  Rachav in &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Yehoshua 2&lt;/span&gt; tied a red thread or marker about her window so that she may be spared.  Also, it states in E&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;yshes Chayil, Mishlei 31&lt;/span&gt;, that a woman has no fear of snow for her home is clothed in scarlet wool.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nevertheless, there are many &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;rishonim &lt;/span&gt;who do &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;pasken &lt;/span&gt;from the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Tosefta&lt;/span&gt;.  Also, the above cited &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;pesukim &lt;/span&gt;only mention tying the thread as a practical identifier (Zerach and Rachav) or as a fine form of insulation (&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Mishlei&lt;/span&gt;).  None of these verses depict wearing scarlet cloth as a protective &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;segula&lt;/span&gt;.  Furthermore, we find that there are idolatrous religions which use a red thread about the wrist as a form of protection.   For all of these reasons we must be concerned that wearing a red thread about the wrist for protection is &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;darkei ha-Emori&lt;/span&gt;.  Since &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;darkei ha-Emori&lt;/span&gt; and &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Avodah Zara&lt;/span&gt; are areas in which we exercise extraordinary caution, we must prohibit the practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You may wonder then, why so many wear the strings? The &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Radak &lt;/span&gt;in his commentary to &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Yeshaya &lt;/span&gt;40:21 explains that there are always practices people engage in that they believe have the power to save, heal, damage or sicken.  However, many of these customs are without foundation or merit and, though having persisted through the generations, are nevertheless &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;darkei ha-Emori&lt;/span&gt; and prohibited.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And for those who still need to believe that the string is a valid form of protection, see the Rambam in &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;Moreh Nevuchim 3 &lt;/span&gt;who writes that  those who use &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;darkei ha-Emori &lt;/span&gt; for protection will not only be unprotected, but will come to harm as a result of their transgression!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For all these reasons, I believe that the custom of wearing a red string about the wrist is non-Jewish in origin.  With the steady Jewish immigration to Eretz Yisroel since the late 18th century, the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;bendel &lt;/span&gt;seems to have been innocently adopted as a superstition by the populace.    Alternatively, wearing the &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;bendel &lt;/span&gt;may have developed as a corruption of an earlier, possibly authentic custom of wrapping red thread about the cradle of a newborn.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To make matters worse, the red thread bracelet has become strongly associated with the "Kabbalah Center," an organization run by &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;reshaim &lt;/span&gt;who, in my estimation, have pornographized and made a mockery of our holy &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;mesora&lt;/span&gt;.   They are the primary driving force behind the proliferation of the red thread,  marketing it and other gimmicks at exorbitant prices to a public craving single-serve spiritual quick fixes.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For all these reasons one should definitely not wear such a thing and should tell others that wearing this thing is may be &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;darkei ha-emori&lt;/span&gt; and an &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;issur d'oraisa.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel.&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-201558132872837909?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/201558132872837909/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=201558132872837909&amp;isPopup=true' title='9 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/201558132872837909'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/201558132872837909'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/05/der-roite-bendel-red-thread.html' title='Der Roite Bendel: The Red Thread'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><media:thumbnail xmlns:media='http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/' url='http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5Wfsa8XbBuM/SB9RIg1ioaI/AAAAAAAAABI/gPHvA38G5y0/s72-c/red_linen_thread.jpg' height='72' width='72'/><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>9</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-2129002028522651420</id><published>2008-05-02T02:31:00.006-04:00</published><updated>2008-05-06T02:31:10.167-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='kashrus'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Chalav Yisroel'/><title type='text'>Chalav Yisroel - Background and Contemporary Applications Part III</title><content type='html'>&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;font-size:100%;" &gt;In this final installment of our series on chalav Yisroel we will examine the application of chalav Yisroel to powdered milk and other dairy products as well as the diverse ways of observing the halacha...&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;V.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Powdered Milk&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;Most of the usual questions regarding the observance of &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; concern powdered milk. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Many dairy products in the &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt; are not produced with liquid milk, only powdered milk.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;A good example is milk chocolate. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Milk chocolate must be made with powdered milk, not liquid milk, or else the chocolate will not solidify.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;In 1944, Rabbi Tzvi Pesach Frank &lt;i&gt;paskened&lt;/i&gt; it was &lt;i&gt;mutar&lt;/i&gt; to consume non-&lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel &lt;/i&gt;powdered milk imported from the &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The Rav formulated his &lt;i&gt;heter&lt;/i&gt; by comparing powdered milk production to butter production.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Butter, as is well known, has numerous leniencies. For example, it does not need the same level of supervision as other dairy products and &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; is not a major issue in butter &lt;i&gt;kashrus&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Rav Frank &lt;i&gt;paskened&lt;/i&gt; that, while federal supervision was not enough to render actual milk &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;, powdered milk was &lt;i&gt;muter&lt;/i&gt; without Jewish supervision because it is &lt;i&gt;halachically&lt;/i&gt; more similar to butter than to actual milk. &lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;He concludes that we can be lenient and rely on government supervision with certain milk by-products such as powdered milk and butter, but not by actual milk.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The&lt;i&gt; Chazon Ish&lt;/i&gt;, however, vehemently disagreed with Rav Frank. Rav Karelitz explained that butter’s leniencies exist because, as the Rambam writes, an admixture of kosher milk and non-kosher milk cannot become butter.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Since it cannot become butter, we are not concerned for about the addition of non-kosher milk.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i&gt;Chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; is simply not relevant to butter.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;Powdered milk, though, according to the &lt;i&gt;Chazon Ish&lt;/i&gt;, can be made regardless as to whether its source is &lt;i&gt;tamei&lt;/i&gt; or &lt;i&gt;tahor&lt;/i&gt;. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Therefore, &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; remains an issue with powdered milk as well.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;In defense of a powdered milk &lt;i&gt;heter&lt;/i&gt;, the&lt;i&gt; Tzitz Eliezer&lt;/i&gt;, Rav Eliezer Yehuda Waldenberg ztz”l, offered a fascinating alternative to Rav Frank’s reasoning which circumvents the objections of the &lt;i&gt;Chazon Ish&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;When a bottle of never-supervised non-Jewish milk is sitting in the store, it is not prohibited to a Jew.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Likewise, there is no requirement for the milk to be &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The requirement of &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; only comes when the Jew is &lt;i&gt;koneh&lt;/i&gt; the milk.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;At that point the prohibitions and requirements of&lt;i&gt; cholov akum/chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; become effective.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, when a Jew acquires powdered milk, there is no actual milk present upon which the prohibition can fall.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The reason is that powdered milk is not &lt;i&gt;nikhlal&lt;/i&gt; in the &lt;i&gt;shem&lt;/i&gt; “&lt;i&gt;chalav&lt;/i&gt;,” and therefore lies beyond the boundaries of the original rabbinic decree.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;Practically speaking, these &lt;i&gt;teshuvos&lt;/i&gt; only represent a fraction of the total discussion of the issue and the question remains debated even today.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;As a result, you have those in the &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:country-region&gt; who are lenient and those in the &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:country-region&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt; who are strict in the observance of &lt;i&gt;chalav&lt;/i&gt; &lt;i&gt;Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; by powdered milk.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;VI. Other Dairy Products&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;What about &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; and other dairy products?&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Due the numerous rulings of the contemporary &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt;, there is much diversity in applying &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; to modern dairy kashrus.&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;ul style="margin-top: 0in;" type="disc"&gt;&lt;li class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;Butter&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; – There are numerous leniencies enabling      one to consume butter produced from non-&lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; milk.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;In fact, the custom for centuries was even      to treat pure butter as 100% kosher without any supervision or &lt;i&gt;hasgocha&lt;/i&gt;!&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;As stated earlier, butter cannot be      produced if kosher and non-kosher milks are mixed.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, the situation has changed      today.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Nowadays, many butter      producers seek to enhance flavor by adding whey.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;More often than not, this whey is a      by-product from the manufacture of non-kosher cheeses. The ramification is      that butter must have a &lt;i&gt;hekhsher&lt;/i&gt; nowadays, although many do not      require it to be&lt;i&gt; chalav Yisroel. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;ul style="margin-top: 0in;" type="disc"&gt;&lt;li class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;Cheese&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; – &lt;i&gt;Lechatchila&lt;/i&gt;, cheeses should be      made with &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; milk.&lt;span style=""&gt;       &lt;/span&gt;But, why state “&lt;i&gt;Lechatchila&lt;/i&gt;?”&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Shouldn’t we say that even &lt;i&gt;b’dieved&lt;/i&gt;      cheese must be produced from &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel &lt;/i&gt;milk? The answer is      that Rav Moshe’s &lt;i&gt;kula&lt;/i&gt;, in combination with a statement of the &lt;i&gt;Rama&lt;/i&gt;      in &lt;i&gt;Shulchan Aruch&lt;/i&gt;, combine to create a fascinating leniency by      cheese.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Rav Moshe would allow      cheese to be produced with USDA supervised milk (which is &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;      according to his understanding).&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If      we are to accept Rav Moshe’s ruling, then, naturally, the resulting cheese      is &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;If we      are to reject Rav Moshe’s rationale, we do not necessarily say that the      cheese is, &lt;i&gt;b’dieved&lt;/i&gt;, prohibited.&lt;span style=""&gt;       &lt;/span&gt;The reason is that Rama &lt;i&gt;paskens&lt;/i&gt; that &lt;i&gt;b’dieved&lt;/i&gt; cheese      made from &lt;i&gt;chalav akum &lt;/i&gt;is kosher provided that a Jew was involved in      the production of the cheese. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Part      of his rationale is that, again, non-kosher milk does not easily become      cheese.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Therefore, whether one      relies upon Rav Moshe or not, there is some room for leniency with non-&lt;i&gt;chalav      Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; cheeses. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;ul style="margin-top: 0in;" type="disc"&gt;&lt;li class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;Milk Chocolate, Cereals, and Other Powdered Milk      Products&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;      – If one holds of Rav Moshe, then all &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:country-region&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt; dairy products, powdered or      liquid are&lt;i&gt; chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;        &lt;/span&gt;However, there are authorities who, though they reject Rav Moshe’s &lt;i&gt;kula&lt;/i&gt;      for &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel,&lt;/i&gt; nevertheless exempt powdered milk from the      law.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;These authorities would      require the observance of &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; by all &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt; liquid      milk products, yet permit non-&lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; powdered milk. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;VI. The Practical Observance of&lt;i&gt; Chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.25in; text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;There are, roughly, six different methods by which one fulfills the mitzvah of avoiding &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; and consuming &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.75in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;1.&lt;span style=""&gt;        &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"  style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;All &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:country-region&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt; produced dairy products are considered &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel.&lt;/i&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This approach is a complete acceptance of Rav Moshe’s &lt;i&gt;kula&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Though Rav Moshe accepts all &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt; dairy products as &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;, this is provided that the products are kosher to begin with.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;It is true that, at the time Rav Moshe authored these &lt;i&gt;teshuvos&lt;/i&gt;, it would have been permissible to buy milk without a &lt;i&gt;hekhsher&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However the situation changed dramatically about 14 years ago.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;T&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;he cause of this change was a little known medical condition affecting many &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt; dairy cows termed “left displaced abomasum.”&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Due a high carbohydrate diet and lack of exercise amongst American dairy cattle, these cows sometime develop tissue abnormalities in the wall of the abomasum, the fourth stomach.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;As the stomach fills with gas during digestion, it becomes distended and misplaced across the ventral line from the right to the left side of the animal. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;As the organ shifts it often introduces a fatal twist into the intestines.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;There are five procedures used to correct the condition if detected early enough.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The most common treatment is to manipulate the stomach back into place and then secure it with a surgical staple through the body wall.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;While this certainly relieves the animal’s discomfort and saves its life, the procedure also renders the animal &lt;i&gt;treif&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Since the &lt;i&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; is that anything which comes from a non-kosher animal is also non-kosher, the milk of these cows will also be &lt;i&gt;treif&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Initially, many &lt;i&gt;rabbonim&lt;/i&gt; sought to permit the milk made from these animals via &lt;i&gt;bittul&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Yet, it quickly became apparent that this surgery had been executed on between 3% and 15% of the herds surveyed; far more than the 1.63% required to &lt;i&gt;mevatel&lt;/i&gt; the &lt;i&gt;treif&lt;/i&gt; milk.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;When this story broke, thanks to a perceptive &lt;i&gt;mashgiach&lt;/i&gt;, kosher dairy production temporarily ground to a halt.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The result is that all dairy produced in the US now requires a &lt;i&gt;hekhsher&lt;/i&gt; to assure that cattle having undergone this corrective procedure have all been removed from the kosher milking herd.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.75in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;2.&lt;span style=""&gt;      &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"  style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;Liquid milk must be &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;, yet powdered milk, cheeses, and butter only require a &lt;i&gt;hekhsher&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This configuration holds like the numerous &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; who are doubtful of Rav Moshe’s reasoning.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, it also accepts the rulings of Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank and Rav Waldenberg that &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; does not apply to powdered milk.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Additionally, this position takes into account the Rama’s leniency that &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; may not be required &lt;i&gt;bdieved&lt;/i&gt; for cheeses and that the prohibition of &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; does not apply to butter.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.75in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;3.&lt;span style=""&gt;       &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"  style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;Only milk and Cheese must be &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;This arrangement is similar to the previous with the exception that cheeses are required to be &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;The Rama’s &lt;i&gt;heter&lt;/i&gt; to allow non-&lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; cheese is not universally relied upon in the Ashkenaz community.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Therefore, there are many who will require both milk and cheese to be &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel, &lt;/i&gt;yet will retain the aforementioned leniencies for butter and powdered milk. &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.75in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;4.&lt;span style=""&gt;      &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"  style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;b&gt;All dairy products must be &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; excluding powdered milk and/or butter. &lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;In the &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;United States&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt; this approach covers most of the basics.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The reason for many in the &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:country-region&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt; to accept the &lt;i&gt;heter&lt;/i&gt; of Rabbis Frank and Waldenberg is that it functions in combination with Rav Moshe’s leniency that American produced milk may be legitimate&lt;i&gt; chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Many as well exclude butter from the concern of &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; due to the opinion that butter cannot be produced from &lt;i&gt;tamei&lt;/i&gt; milk.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, many only extend leniency to powdered milk and require that butter be produced from &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; milk. &lt;span style=""&gt;     &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;                                                         &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.75in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;5.&lt;span style=""&gt;       &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"  style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;All dairy products must be&lt;i&gt; chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;This approach is the strictest of the four aforementioned configurations.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Though it removes any doubt as to transgression, this method of observance&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;also rejects many customs and leniencies relied by pious Jews for centuries.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Many who observe the &lt;i&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; in this manner, are nevertheless lenient with the &lt;i&gt;blias&lt;/i&gt; of &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;This was the opinion of Rav Yaakov Kamanetsky and many other American &lt;i&gt;gadolim&lt;/i&gt; who, though they only consumed only&lt;i&gt; chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;, were not strict about food cooking in pots previously used for non-&lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; dairy.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Additionally, those who hold this way are willing to accept many of the leniencies we have discussed in cases of loss or difficulty. &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.75in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;!--[if !supportLists]--&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;6.&lt;span style=""&gt;        &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;&lt;span dir="ltr"  style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;All dairy must be from &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; milk, the &lt;i&gt;blias&lt;/i&gt; of non-&lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel &lt;/i&gt;milk are prohibited, and there are no acceptable leniencies. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This stringent approach is usually associated with the Lubavitch chassidim.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Curiously, Lubavitch does not base nor defend their approach from any &lt;i&gt;halachic&lt;/i&gt; source.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Rather, they have a tradition that one of their rebbes attributed the abandonment of Yiddishkeit by a certain chosid to his use of non-&lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel &lt;/i&gt;dairy.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Accordingly, Lubavitch believes a metaphysical relationship exists between dairy kashrus and the level and purity of one’s &lt;i&gt;emuna&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;For this reason, Chabad accepts no leniencies in their observance of&lt;i&gt; chalav Yisroel.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.75in; text-indent: -0.25in;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;VI. Conclusions&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The applicability of &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel/chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; in the &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;USA&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt; has never been at issue; rather, the debate has focused on the definition of&lt;i&gt; chalav Yisroel &lt;/i&gt;and the exact status of federally supervised milk.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;    &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;However, the applicability of &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; to other dairy products has been disputed.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Historically, &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; has never been a concern by butter, although some are strict.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In recent times, several &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; have novated leniencies for powdered milk.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;While some accept these leniencies, others do not differentiate between powdered milk and liquid milk except in dire circumstances. &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Additionally, there are &lt;i&gt;bidieved&lt;/i&gt; leniencies existing for cheeses that are relied upon by some.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The result of this diversity of rabbinic opinions is that there are several valid methods of fulfilling the requirement of &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;, all of which can find endorsement amongst the greatest of &lt;i&gt;halachic&lt;/i&gt; authorities.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;As we know, &lt;i&gt;Torah lo bi-shamayim hi&lt;/i&gt;, and the deciding authority for &lt;i&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; is in the hands of the Rabbis.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;One whose observance of &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; is rooted in their &lt;i&gt;da’as&lt;/i&gt; cannot,&lt;i&gt; chas ve-shalom&lt;/i&gt;, be seen as a transgressor or in error. &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.25in; text-indent: 0.25in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-2129002028522651420?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/2129002028522651420/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=2129002028522651420&amp;isPopup=true' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/2129002028522651420'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/2129002028522651420'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/05/chalav-yisroel-background-and.html' title='Chalav Yisroel - Background and Contemporary Applications Part III'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-2862461847529235326</id><published>2008-04-30T19:32:00.007-04:00</published><updated>2008-05-06T02:32:02.825-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='kashrus'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Chalav Yisroel'/><title type='text'>Chalav Yisroel - Background and Contemporary Applications Part II</title><content type='html'>&lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;font-size:100%;" &gt;    In this continuation of our &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;font-size:100%;" &gt;shuir&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;font-size:100%;" &gt;, we will explore the famous &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;font-size:100%;" &gt;kula &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;font-size:100%;" &gt;of Rav Moshe Feinstein ztz"l and its impact on US dairy &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;font-size:100%;" &gt;        kasrus&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;font-size:100%;" &gt;...&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;III. The &lt;i&gt;Kula&lt;/i&gt; of Rav Moshe, ztz”l&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"  style="text-indent: 0.5in;font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;As is commonly known, in the 1950’s Rav Moshe Feinstein, ztz”l authored a series of famous &lt;i&gt;teshuvos &lt;/i&gt;(&lt;i&gt;Igros Moshe &lt;/i&gt;YD I:47, 48, 49) which have had massive impact on the observance of &lt;i&gt;chalav yisroel, gevinas yisroel, &lt;/i&gt;and other areas of dairy kashrus.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Though brilliant and unique, these &lt;i&gt;teshuvos&lt;/i&gt; are often misunderstood.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The most common misunderstanding is that Rav Moshe &lt;i&gt;paskened&lt;/i&gt; that &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; does not apply in the &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:country-region&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt;, or that Rav Moshe gave a &lt;i&gt;heter&lt;/i&gt; for &lt;i&gt;chalav stam/chalav akum&lt;/i&gt;. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Neither of these assertions is accurate.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Rav Moshe’s &lt;i&gt;teshuva&lt;/i&gt; is not a “&lt;i&gt;heter&lt;/i&gt;” which permits &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; and obviates the requirement for &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Rather, it is a &lt;i&gt;kula&lt;/i&gt; which seeks to define the boundaries of &lt;i&gt;chalav yisroel&lt;/i&gt; milk in the &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;United States&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;However, Rav Moshe clearly holds that American Jews are bound to the law and required to consume only &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; products.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The question is: What is &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel?&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"  style="text-indent: 0.5in;font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;There are two fundamental issues Rav Moshe addresses in his &lt;i&gt;teshuva&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;The first is: If you could create a situation of &lt;i&gt;mirsus&lt;/i&gt;, absent Jewish supervision, would the milk then be kosher? &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;According to the &lt;i&gt;Pri Chodosh&lt;/i&gt;, the whole problem is the possibility of &lt;i&gt;tamei&lt;/i&gt; milk being added, a problem which is countered by &lt;i&gt;mirsus&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In our country the government, via the USDA, strictly regulates milk production and heavily penalizes anyone who vitiates cow milk with milk from other animals.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;This system of supervision would appear to create &lt;i&gt;mirsus&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Accordingly, Rav Moshe &lt;i&gt;paskened&lt;/i&gt; in &lt;i&gt;YD&lt;/i&gt; I:47 that the fear of government penalties is enough to permit the milk for Jewish consumption. This first point fundamentally satisfies the&lt;i&gt; Pri Chodosh’s&lt;/i&gt; interpretation of the prohibition of &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"  style="text-indent: 0.5in;font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;However, the second issue that the Rav has to address is according to the&lt;i&gt; Chasam Sofer. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If the &lt;i&gt;issur&lt;/i&gt; of &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; is a &lt;i&gt;davar shebi-minyan&lt;/i&gt;, then Jewish supervision will be required regardless of the probability of &lt;i&gt;tamei&lt;/i&gt; milk being present.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;To ally this concern, Rav Moshe invokes the principle of &lt;i&gt;anan sahadi. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;This Talmudic concept provides that, under certain limited circumstances, knowledge of an event is comparable to witnessing the event itself.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In the case of milk production, since we all know that the government is supervising the production of milk, and since those producing the milk know they are being watched, and since the consumers know that the producers are being watched, then it is as if we are actually witnessing the milking ourselves.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Rav Moshe writes that even the &lt;i&gt;Chasam Sofer&lt;/i&gt; would accept this reasoning.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Although such is Rav Moshe’s &lt;i&gt;psak&lt;/i&gt;, he concludes that a &lt;i&gt;ba’al nefesh&lt;/i&gt; should be strict and not rely upon federal supervision.&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"  style="text-indent: 0.5in;font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;What emerges is that Rav Moshe is not giving a &lt;i&gt;heter&lt;/i&gt; to exempt anyone from the requirement of &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;On the contrary, Rav Moshe is stating one must hold by &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Rather, Rav Moshe is learning a &lt;i&gt;kula&lt;/i&gt; that milk supervised by the government qualifies as &lt;i&gt;chalav yisroel&lt;/i&gt;!&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"  style="text-indent: 0.5in;font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;      &lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;Accordingly, “Do you keep &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;?” is really the wrong question in this country.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The right question is “Do you hold that USDA supervised milk is acceptable as &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;?”&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;IV. The Reaction to Rav Moshe’s &lt;i&gt;Kula&lt;/i&gt; &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"  style="margin-left: 0.25in;font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"  style="text-indent: 0.5in;font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;To this &lt;i&gt;teshuva&lt;/i&gt;, there was substantial agreement either in whole or in principle from several very prominent American &lt;i&gt;gadolim&lt;/i&gt; including Rav Yosef Henkin, Rav Yaakov Kamanetsky, and many others.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"  style="text-indent: 0.5in;font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;                &lt;/span&gt;Although Rav Moshe’s &lt;i&gt;teshuva&lt;/i&gt; has had been widely accepted in the &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt; and other countries with strict federal supervision, it does exhibit a potential vulnerability which has come under scrutiny.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"  style="text-indent: 0.5in;font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;A number of eminent &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt;, including Rav Breish in the &lt;i&gt;Chelkos Ya’akov&lt;/i&gt;, the &lt;i&gt;Minchos Yitzchok&lt;/i&gt;, Rav Wozner in the &lt;i&gt;Shevet ha-Levy&lt;/i&gt; and many others point out that, while Rav Moshe’s &lt;i&gt;teshuva&lt;/i&gt; satisfies the &lt;i&gt;Pri Chodosh&lt;/i&gt;, it fails to satisfy the &lt;i&gt;Chasam Sofer.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The problem, according to these dissenting authorities, is Rav Moshe understanding of &lt;i&gt;anan sahadi.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;i&gt;Anan sahadi&lt;/i&gt; is an abstract legal concept awarding certain common knowledge the status of legally valid testimony in the context of legal proceedings. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;A Jew’s watching of the milking isn’t a situation of bearing witness or testimony.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Instead, it is intended to create &lt;i&gt;mirsus&lt;/i&gt; or is a specific requirement of a &lt;i&gt;davar shebi-minyan&lt;/i&gt;. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;According to the &lt;i&gt;Chasam Sofer&lt;/i&gt;, you must have a Jew physically present and it is not possible that &lt;i&gt;anan sahadi&lt;/i&gt; satisfies physical presence.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;This complaint is not limited to only Ashkenazi &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt;; Rav Ovadya Yoseif in his &lt;i&gt;Yechave Da’as &lt;/i&gt;and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu both state that Rav Moshe’s &lt;i&gt;teshuva&lt;/i&gt; only successfully satisfies the &lt;i&gt;Pri Chodosh&lt;/i&gt;, not the &lt;i&gt;Chasam sofer. &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"  style="text-indent: 0.5in;font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"  style="text-indent: 0.5in;font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;Furthermore, Rav Ehud Bakshi Doron has explained that many hold the &lt;i&gt;issur&lt;/i&gt; of &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; may well be to limit social interaction between Jews and non-Jews.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;According to these &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt;, Rav Moshe’s &lt;i&gt;kula&lt;/i&gt; cannot be relied upon. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:100%;"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"  style="text-indent: 0.5in;font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;Nevertheless, as mentioned earlier, there were many great &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; who accepted Rav Moshe’s decision and who were of equal stature to his detractors. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;As a result the Rav’s &lt;i&gt;teshuva&lt;/i&gt; is widely relied upon in the &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;United   States&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt; and in a few other English speaking countries.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p  class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"  style="text-indent: 0.5in;font-family:verdana;"&gt;&lt;span style=";font-size:100%;color:black;"  &gt;Interestingly, support for Rav Moshe is found in the writings of the &lt;i&gt;Chazon Ish&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The &lt;i&gt;Chazon Ish&lt;/i&gt; holds that the fundamental law of &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; is according to the &lt;i&gt;Pri Chodosh &lt;/i&gt;and not the &lt;i&gt;Chasam Sofer.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;Accordingly then, Rav Moshe’s &lt;i&gt;teshuva&lt;/i&gt; succeeds in satisfying the fundamental intent of the law. &lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However those who knew the &lt;i&gt;Chazon Ish&lt;/i&gt;, such as Rav Yakov Kanievsky and others, have stated that he personally only relied on this reasoning in very dire circumstances and even then for milk derivatives only. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Normally, though, he only drank milk that was properly supervised.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Nevertheless, that the &lt;i&gt;Chazon Ish&lt;/i&gt; understood the &lt;i&gt;Pri Chodosh&lt;/i&gt; as the &lt;i&gt;ikkar&lt;/i&gt; is a support for Rav Moshe’s &lt;i&gt;kula.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;span style=";font-family:georgia;font-size:100%;"  &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in; font-family: georgia;"&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"  &gt;Coming soon: Part III - Chalav Yisroel, Powdered Milk and Other Dairy Products...&lt;/span&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-2862461847529235326?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/2862461847529235326/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=2862461847529235326&amp;isPopup=true' title='2 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/2862461847529235326'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/2862461847529235326'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/04/chalav-yisroel-background-and_30.html' title='Chalav Yisroel - Background and Contemporary Applications Part II'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>2</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3567707624549543360.post-5078306878269770452</id><published>2008-04-28T21:58:00.002-04:00</published><updated>2008-05-06T02:32:52.648-04:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='kashrus'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Chalav Yisroel'/><title type='text'>Chalav Yisroel - Background and Contemporary Applications Part I</title><content type='html'>&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;I. Introduction&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The prohibition of &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; and its attending requirement of &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; has become something of a touchy subject if not an outright neurosis for many North American kosher consumers.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The angst appears to stem mostly from a misunderstanding of the &lt;i&gt;halachic&lt;/i&gt; debate surrounding the prohibition and, in particular, Rav Moshe Feinstein’s ztz”l famous &lt;i&gt;teshuvos&lt;/i&gt; on the topic.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Another problem is that “keeping &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;” and “not keeping&lt;i&gt; chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;” have taken on numerous unwarranted and erroneous connotations to the point that the observance of this &lt;i&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; has become something of a litmus test of one’s religiosity.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;In truth, &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel/chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; is nothing of the sort.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;To confuse the issue even further, there are about six or seven different configurations by which one could observe &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Some of these configurations contradict each other and even appear to harbor internal contradictions.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Nevertheless, those who rely upon them have a basis and cannot be considered to be behaving in error. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;In this &lt;i&gt;shiur&lt;/i&gt; we are going to examine the issues surrounding the observance of this mitzvah, the differing standards that exist, and the ramifications of the varying &lt;i&gt;halachic&lt;/i&gt; opinions on the modern situation. &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;II. Mekoros&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The source for the prohibition of non-Jewish milk, &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt;, is in the &lt;i&gt;Mishna&lt;/i&gt;, tractate Avoda Zara 35b: &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;These are the items of idol worshipers that are prohibited, yet their prohibition is not a prohibition against benefit: Milk milked by an idolater without the oversight of a Jew, their bread, and their oil. &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The Gemora explains that our concern is that the non-Jew may have mixed in non-kosher milk. Transporting, pouring, and jostling about fresh milk can have the effect of churning it, making it lumpy and buttery.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Apparently, one could keep his milk-pail liquid with the addition of a minute amount of non-kosher milk. &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;Having just established the prohibition and that it is nullified by the oversight of a Jew, the Mishna appears to duplicate itself only a few pages later in the Gemora (ibid. 39b), stating: &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;These are permitted for consumption: Milk milked by an idolater whilst overseen by a Jew…&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The obvious question is: Why does this &lt;i&gt;Mishna&lt;/i&gt; bother to tell us this? Is not this fact evident from the prior Mishna?&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;There must be something implied here that we could not have figured out previously.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The &lt;i&gt;Gemora &lt;/i&gt;in its analysis concludes the &lt;i&gt;chiddush&lt;/i&gt; is that the Jew supervising the milking does not need to be watching the entire time; rather he could do random “spot checks.” &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Nevertheless, &lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;his visits need to be sufficiently frequent and random such that the non-Jew will experience a realistic fear of getting caught.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;That fear, or &lt;i&gt;mirsus&lt;/i&gt;, is enough to for us to assume that he would not mix anything non-kosher into the milk.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The Gemora, however, contains an ambiguity. The recurring model situation referenced by the Gemora is that of a Jew who sits alongside a non-Jew’s herd.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The Gemora states that he doesn’t need to constantly supervise the milk, rather it is sufficient that he just pop-in and out.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, it is unclear from the Gemora whether or not we are speaking of a herd of all kosher animals, or of a mixed herd with kosher and non-kosher animals.&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;If we are talking about a mixed herd, then surely we must be concerned about non-kosher milk being mixed in.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, why should we worry if the non-Jew’s herd consists of all kosher animals?&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In that case, perhaps the likelihood of mixed milks is so low that we don’t have to worry about &lt;i&gt;tamei&lt;/i&gt; milk being added to kosher milk?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The Mordechai 826, addresses this ambiguity, ruling that the &lt;i&gt;gezeira&lt;/i&gt; against &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; applies even in a case where there are no non-kosher animals in the herd.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Even then, a Jew must observe the milking in order for the milk to be kosher. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The questions which naturally follows is: What is the Mordechai’s rationale?&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Why require supervision and &lt;i&gt;mirsus &lt;/i&gt;even when there are no non-kosher animals about?&lt;span style=""&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;There are two answers in the &lt;i&gt;halachic&lt;/i&gt; literature which have become the pillars upon which rests the prohibition of &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; and the requirement of&lt;i&gt; chalav Yisroel.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The first answer is that of the &lt;i&gt;Pri Chodosh&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;According to him, the Mordechai holds that a Jew must be present in such a situation to ensure that the non-Jew doesn’t bring non-kosher milk from elsewhere. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;However, in a locale where non-kosher animals are not found at all, or where &lt;i&gt;tamei&lt;/i&gt; milk is expensive, then even the Mordechai would agree that you do not need to have a Jew present for the milking.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;We find that, according to the &lt;i&gt;Pri Chodosh,&lt;/i&gt; the requirement of Jewish supervision is dependant upon the probability of having non-kosher milk mixed in. &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The second answer is that of the &lt;i&gt;Chasam Sofer&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;His &lt;i&gt;Shu”t YD&lt;/i&gt; 107 explains that the Mordechai requires Jewish supervision even when there are no &lt;i&gt;tamei&lt;/i&gt; animals in the herd and even where there is no chance of there being &lt;i&gt;tamei&lt;/i&gt; milk mixed into the kosher milk. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;According to the &lt;i&gt;Chasam Sofer&lt;/i&gt;, the Mordechai interprets &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel/chalav akum &lt;/i&gt;as a &lt;i&gt;davar she-bi-minyan.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;A &lt;i&gt;davar shebi-minyan&lt;/i&gt; is described in the Gemora in tractate &lt;i&gt;Beitza&lt;/i&gt; as a decree passed by an official &lt;i&gt;halachic&lt;/i&gt; court, such as the Sanhedrin.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The law is that such a decree applies even when the exact reason for the decree is no longer applicable.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;A &lt;i&gt;davar shebi-minyan&lt;/i&gt; may only be annulled by a&lt;i&gt; beis din &lt;/i&gt;of comparable authority and/or wisdom to the &lt;i&gt;beis din&lt;/i&gt; that originated the decree. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The &lt;i&gt;Chasam Sofer&lt;/i&gt;’s explanation of the Mordechai is generally consistent with many other prohibitions on non-Jewish produced foods and, as such, is accepted by the majority of the &lt;i&gt;acharonim&lt;/i&gt; (including the &lt;i&gt;Aruch ha-Shulchan,&lt;/i&gt; the &lt;i&gt;Chochmos Adam,&lt;/i&gt; the &lt;i&gt;Mateh Yehonasan&lt;/i&gt;, and even Rav Moshe Feinstein ztz”l) as the primary answer to the difficulty in the Mordechai.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;The question that began this discussion, whether &lt;i&gt;chalav akum&lt;/i&gt; applies in a herd of only kosher animals, is analogous to industrial dairy production in the &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;United States&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt;. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;O&lt;span style="color:black;"&gt;ur dairies don’t have &lt;i&gt;tamei&lt;/i&gt; animals in them and &lt;i&gt;tamei&lt;/i&gt; milk isn’t produced or generally consumed in this country. &lt;span style=""&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Therefore, it appears that the &lt;i&gt;Pri Chodosh&lt;/i&gt; would &lt;i&gt;pasken&lt;/i&gt; that there is no requirement to observe &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; in the &lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:place&gt;&lt;/st1:country-region&gt; because the law doesn’t even apply.&lt;span style=""&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The &lt;i&gt;Chasam Sofer&lt;/i&gt;, however, would explain that one is nevertheless required to keep &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel &lt;/i&gt;and non&lt;i&gt;-chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; milk is not kosher.&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal" style=""&gt;&lt;span style=""&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;span style=""&gt;Since the majority of the &lt;i&gt;poskim&lt;/i&gt; hold the &lt;i&gt;halacha&lt;/i&gt; is like the &lt;i&gt;Chasam Sofer&lt;/i&gt;, then we must conclude that &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel&lt;/i&gt; is in force in the &lt;st1:place st="on"&gt;&lt;st1:country-region st="on"&gt;US&lt;/st1:country-region&gt;&lt;/st1:place&gt; and every Jew is required to “keep &lt;i&gt;chalav Yisroel.”&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  &lt;/i&gt;However, what constitutes "chalav yisroel" is the subject  of an important teshuva authored by Rav Moshe Feinstein ztz"l in the 1950's.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;br /&gt;NEXT POST:  The Kula of Rav Moshe Feinstein ztz"l...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/i&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3567707624549543360-5078306878269770452?l=www.baisavraham.com'/&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/feeds/5078306878269770452/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3567707624549543360&amp;postID=5078306878269770452&amp;isPopup=true' title='3 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/5078306878269770452'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3567707624549543360/posts/default/5078306878269770452'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://www.baisavraham.com/2008/04/chalav-yisroel-background-and.html' title='Chalav Yisroel - Background and Contemporary Applications Part I'/><author><name>Rabbi A. Bloomenstiel</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/17839882181896359750</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:extendedProperty xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' name='OpenSocialUserId' value='12759949788078221990'/></author><thr:total xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'>3</thr:total></entry></feed>