Comments on Informed Comment: The Non-Debate

Biden was the true "natural". Not this latest avat...

2008-10-05T22:32:00.000-04:00

Biden was the true "natural". Not this latest avatar of Palin.

You don't debate with someone who doesn't believe in debate. You don't debate with someone who thinks he/she is always right and never make mistakes. You don't debate with someone who thinks there is no such thing as evolution.

You just speak and listen to this person speak. And hope he or she will never be in a position to nominate Supreme Justices.

Dear Juan, Dear Readers:Could anyone please correc...

2008-10-04T16:43:00.000-04:00

Dear Juan, Dear Readers:

Could anyone please correct me if i'm wrong but when Biden said:

"When we kicked -- along with France, we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, I said and Barack said, "Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don't know -- if you don't, Hezbollah will control it.Now what's happened? Hezbollah is a legitimate part of the government in the country immediately to the north of Israel."

Now here is what i know about hezbollah in Lebanon: First, neither France nor the US has ever kicked them out of Lebanon!
Second, if i'm not mistaken, Hezbollah was already a legitimate part of the lebanese government and parliament.

Now if those two points are correct, why hasn't anyone called out senator Biden on this huge terrible foreign policy blunder?!
There is a lot at stake in this region. And i wouldn't want anyone in charge of our foreign policy in the region, who is ignorant of the region, its history and dynamics.
If those two facts are not correct, then let me apologize for my intrusion.

Respectfully,
Bruno.

Ed Goldman, Sure, it would have been very satisfyi...

2008-10-04T15:03:00.000-04:00

Ed Goldman,

Sure, it would have been very satisfying to see Biden confront Palin directly on some of those things, just as it would have been very satisfying to see Obama go after McCain. However, their jobs at this point are to win the election, and that includes choosing and following a strategy that will accomplish that. It looks as though their strategy, while not as satisfying to people like you and I, is working. So, let's trust that their campaign strategists really do know what they are doing, and keep our own desires for vindication for another time.

And the Tony Award goes to …!!! One thing last nig...

2008-10-04T14:48:00.000-04:00

And the Tony Award goes to …!!!

One thing last night wasn’t was a debate. It was a show. American Idol on politics.

Each candidate had a script, had performance coaches, were prepped and basically delivered their lines. Joe Biden has had a long career as a senator and be able to think on his feet and probably could have showed up and winged it. He’s been tested through two presidential races in addition to his 36 years in the US Senate and as Chairman of both the Judiciary and Foreign Relations Committees. What did the viewers learn about who Sarah Palin really is and what she thinks about issues? Nothing. All we learned about her was that she gave a performance (and a pretty good one too compared to her interviews with Charlie Gibson and Katie Couric). So the Tony goes to Sarah for her performance. When you go the theater, you never think that the actors are doing anything other than speaking the lines written by the playwright, the performance guided by a director, and what the actors do is try to give a great performance. No one walks out of a theater thinking they know anything about the actors’ personal views. All they hope for is a good story, staged well, with believable performances.

All we have heard after the debate is that “she gave a great performance.” I never heard any pundits who thought she gave a great performance also say she is qualified to be the president of our United States and the leader of the free world. Not one. Does Palin have any understanding of the issues she was talking about? I wanted to jump through the TV and ask Pat Robertson if he wanted Palin to be his president. Does Robertson have confidence that she could sit across from Putin and hold her own? If the Chinese wanted to cash in their $1 trillion in US Treasury notes as an attempt at economic blackmail, what would she say to Premier Wen Jiabao? So Republicans think she gave a great performance. It’s just a performance!!!! Her running mate, depending on the stage of his cancers (which is unclear since independent medical review has not occurred to determine the stage of his melanoma) may have a 38% 10-year survival rate, and he is already eight years into the onset of his cancer. So when you look at Sarah Palin, do you see your president?

As a debate, I was very disappointed. Gwen Ifill lost control early on and never got it back. She let Sarah Palin ignore the agreed-upon ground rules, use her own rules, and Ifill did absolutely nothing to rein her back in. Biden did nothing about it either. Palin then ignored nearly all the questions asked of her and gave her programmed answers that often had nothing to do with the question asked.

Following are some of the responses to Palin I wished Biden would have given. I will use the transcript of actual comments Palin made during the debate. To see the entire transcript, go to http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/02/debate.transcript/ .

PALIN: I'm still on the tax thing because I want to correct you on that again. And I want to let you know what I did as a mayor and as a governor. And I may not answer the questions that either the moderator or you want to hear (emphasis mine), but I'm going to talk straight to the American people and let them know my track record also. As mayor, every year I was in office I did reduce taxes. I eliminated personal property taxes and eliminated small business inventory taxes and as governor we suspended our state fuel tax.

WHAT BIDEN COULD HAVE SAID: Governor, let’s talk about your track record. When you were Mayor of Wasilla you raised the local sales tax, the most regressive tax that affects average families. During your term as mayor the town budget increased 63% and when you started as mayor the town of Wasilla had no debt. When you left the long-term debt of Wasilla was over $18 million. Reminds me of the Bush management of the budget.

As governor, you managed a state that would be the envy of all the other 49 governors. Citizens of Alaska pay no state sales tax, pay no state income taxes and you receive 90% of your state’s budget revenues from oil companies. Alaska is so awash in money you still have enough left over to send checks of $3,269 for every man, woman and child in your state. Your state of 670,000 citizens has also put aside a fund of over $6 billion. The toughest decision you had to make was how high should the check be. Yet you asked for Federal handouts in earmarks for the Bridge to Nowhere. You asked for, and got an earmark of $500,000 so Alaska Airlines could repaint an airplane to look like a salmon. In 2005 you got $435,000 for Alaska Christian College that only had several dozen students at the time. This year you got $282,000 for the Rehabilitation of the Alaska Crab. You requested $550 million in earmarks your first year as governor and Alaska got the highest amount per capita in earmarks than all of the other 49 states, all on your watch. In 2008 you received Federal earmarks for Alaska in the amount of $768 million. And, by the way, when you finally rejected the Bridge to Nowhere, did you ever return the money to the Federal Treasury? You’re the Queen of Earmarks. And all of a sudden you’re opposed to earmarks? Give me a break!

PALIN: I do take issue with some of the principle there with that redistribution of wealth principle that seems to be espoused by you.

WHAT BIDEN COULD HAVE SAID: In the eight years your Republican Party has been in power, the largest redistribution of wealth to the already wealthy has taken place than ever before in the history of our nation. The spread between the poorest and wealthiest is greater than ever before. The Bush tax policy, supported by Sen. McCain, rewards the rich at the expense of the middle class.

IFILL: Next question, Gov. Palin, still on the economy. Last year, Congress passed a bill that would make it more difficult for debt-strapped mortgage-holders to declare bankruptcy, to get out from under that debt. This is something that John McCain supported. Would you have?

PALIN: Yes, I would have. But here, again, there have -- there have been so many changes in the conditions of our economy in just even these past weeks that there has been more and more revelation made aware now to Americans about the corruption and the greed on Wall Street.

WHAT BIDEN COULD HAVE SAID: The bankruptcy bill was a giveaway to banks to make it more difficult for individuals and families to declare personal bankruptcy so they could rebuild their lives. It was an attempt to get blood out of a stone …and it worked. Half of all personal bankruptcies were caused by families who couldn’t pay their medical bills even though they had health insurance, not because they couldn’t pay their mortgages.

PALIN: We do have a plan for withdrawal. We don't need early withdrawal out of Iraq. We cannot afford to lose there or we're going to be no better off in the war in Afghanistan either. We have got to win in Iraq.

And with the surge that has worked we're now down to pre-surge numbers in Iraq. That's where we can be. We can start putting more troops in Afghanistan as we also work with our NATO allies who are there strengthening us and we need to grow our military. We cannot afford to lose against al Qaeda and the Shia extremists who are still there, still fighting us, but we're getting closer and closer to victory. And it would be a travesty if we quit now in Iraq.

… You guys opposed the surge. The surge worked. Barack Obama still can't admit the surge works. We'll know when we're finished in Iraq when the Iraqi government can govern its people and when the Iraqi security forces can secure its people. And our commanders on the ground will tell us when those conditions have been met.

WHAT BIDEN COULD HAVE SAID: Governor, you and John McCain keep talking about winning and victory in Iraq. Since many historians and middle east experts don’t think victory in Iraq is possible, in the terms you describe, what would you do if your vision of victory turns out isn’t attainable or possible?

And as for “winning”, that’s a term that Gen. Petraeus said in an interview with the BBC, that he didn't know if he could promise "victory," and said he didn't know if he would ever even use that word, and suggested that using it is irresponsible. Do you agree with Gen. Petraeus’s comment about using the term “victory” in Iraq?

PALIN: So that people there (Wasilla) can understand how the average working class family is viewing bureaucracy in the federal government and Congress and inaction of Congress. Just everyday working class Americans saying, you know, government, just get out of my way.

WHAT BIDEN COULD HAVE SAID: I wonder if the people of New Orleans wanted government to get out of the way when Katrina struck. Maybe what they want is for government to be competent and to be there when tragedy strikes. You want government to get out of the way and at the same time you and Sen. McCain want more regulation of Wall Street because government looked the other way while trillions of dollars in home equity was wiped out. You and Sen. McCain say that greed and corruption caused Wall Street firms to act like a casino while playing with other people’s money with little or no oversight. This slavish ideology of Government getting out of the way almost caused a financial meltdown. Sen. McCain has stated on many occasions that he believes in deregulation. So which is it: get government out of the way or put in place sensible regulations to prevent Wall Street’s excesses?

I just wish Joe Biden would have called out Palin and not let her get away with deciding what questions she will or will not answer. He allowed her to get away with scripted slogans and misinformation and he should have tried to get her off script so the real Sarah might emerge. While I know that the race is really between Barack Obama and John McCain, Sarah Palin is a heartbeat away from the presidency.

Do you really think she’s presidential?

Juan,I beg to differ.Not withstanding the discussi...

2008-10-04T13:55:00.000-04:00

Juan,

I beg to differ.

Not withstanding the discussions on Israel, the debate showed that at least Biden was on top of his game. Palin was not ready..and it showed.....but the conservatives will have a champion and a standard bearer going forward. So, let's not discount her at all.

""It is almost as though she is narcissistic"She h...

2008-10-04T13:51:00.000-04:00

""It is almost as though she is narcissistic"

She has a lot of the signs of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). George W. Bush appears to be a classic textbook case of NPD.

"Some people have cases of arrested development and don't emotionally mature beyond that. They are commonly called psychopaths or sociopaths."

Ah yes - the "charming" sociopath - all pretty facade, no actual structure! Palin sure appears to fit that well. Narcissists are sociopathic by definition, and are often characterized by grandiosity/hubris, and often extremely vicious vindictiveness.

"a potential danger in the VP office that we haven't seen since Herr Cheney."

Well, we've had a classic narcissist in the White House for eight years, and he has certainly surrounded himself with a gaggle of sociopathic individuals, including but not limited to Cheney, Rumsfeld, Condi Rice, and Colin Powell. So, Palin as VP would be nothing new.

"I think Palin showed she could be coached to lear...

2008-10-04T12:18:00.000-04:00

"I think Palin showed she could be coached to learn things she did not know,"

I think you are being much too generous. I think what Palin showed was that she could be trained, to recite a set of canned statements - with the assistance of a set of well-organized index cards (which she was obviously sorting through and referring to throughout the "dabate"). She also showed that she could be trained to react to "trigger" words with preset stock phrases and "zingers". She did that mostly, but not always, quite skillfully.

In other words, she showed that she could be trained to deliver conditioned responses in very much the same way any animal can be trained.

It was clear that she was not giving spontaneous responses based on any knowledge of her subject, but was merely delivering the responses she was carefully trained to make.

The Republicans pumped her with stock phrases, win...

2008-10-04T08:26:00.000-04:00

The Republicans pumped her with stock phrases, winks and Reagan quotes (and catch phrases). Ugh. Of course, your praise of Biden is odd, but there is a question for those who're going at you: who is the other viable candidate of the left, progressives or the sensible on Israel-Palestine?

"It is almost as though she is narcissistic and un...

2008-10-04T00:32:00.000-04:00

"It is almost as though she is narcissistic and unable to connect with human beings."

That level of narcissism is usually overcome around the age of 6 or 7, when the child is able to put him or herself in another's shoes. Some people have cases of arrested development and don't emotionally mature beyond that. They are commonly called psychopaths or sociopaths. ....A chilling view of Ms. Cutesy Palin, indeed....and a potential danger in the VP office that we haven't seen since Herr Cheney.

"Joe Biden...is one of our foremost foreign affair...

2008-10-04T00:17:00.000-04:00

"Joe Biden...is one of our foremost foreign affairs experts and legislators. His acumen and expertise are wide-ranging."

Are you talking about the same Joe Biden whose vaunted acumen and expertise leads him to talk about kicking Hezbullah - a LEBANESE nationalist group - out of Lebanon? Oh yes, kick those Lebanese nationalists out of Lebanon and send them back to where they came from! Now, that's real acumen.

And would that be the same Joe Biden who possesses such great acumen that he thinks it makes sense for the United States Congress to divide Iraq into three distinct geo-ethno-sectarian parts, despite the fact that Iraq has never in history been divided in that way, and even more despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of the Iraqi people want a united country with a strong central government? Would it be THAT Joe Biden?

And is it also the same Joe Biden whose wide-ranging acumen leads him to the conclusion that the way to beat Al Qa`eda is to build a bunch of pro-American schools along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border? Is it THAT Joe Biden?

If it is that same Joe Biden, then the more I hear from him the less I am impressed with his wide-ranging acumen and expertise, at least when it comes to the Middle East and the Muslim world.

Juan I've been reading your stuff for a long time ...

2008-10-03T21:50:00.000-04:00

Juan I've been reading your stuff for a long time and I know you are one of the sharpest guys around, so rarely deceived. So what's this bs about Biden? I know that you know damn well who Joe Biden is, and what he does and where he can put his "acumen and expertise"

say it ain't so Juan

Well, to lighten this up a relevant joke you may o...

2008-10-03T21:02:00.000-04:00

Well, to lighten this up a relevant joke you may or may not have heard:

Sarah Palin is a post turtle. A what? A port turtle. You're driving down the road and see a turtle on a fence post. That's odd, you say. But you know she didn't get up there by herself. You know she doesn't know what to do now that she's up there. The only question is, who was the damn fool who put her there.

uncle noel:John "the lesser of two evils" above: W...

2008-10-03T20:33:00.000-04:00

uncle noel:

John "the lesser of two evils" above: Why wouldn't voting for the lesser evil be better than allowing the greater to gain control, which result we got in the last election due, in part, to people like you?

Voting "the lessor of two evils" has steadily marched "both" parties, "both" marketing personna really, to the right, until at this point I no longer acknowledge that one or the other of the evils is the lessor. There remain only turtles, all the way down.

Barack Obama was the first to publicly acknowledge that he planned warfare against Pakistan, and now the "greater" of two evils is implementing his plan!

Barack Obama crawled on his belly like a snake before the AIPAC, assuring them that if they wanted the US to go to war with Iran... their wish was his command!

Barack Obama, the $400,000,000 stooge of Wall Street, has just delivered 74% of the House Demoblican vote to the Henry Paulson/Goldman Sachs/Christopher Dodd betrayal. In fact the House Republicrat vote was just 45%... they voted DOWN this traitorous betrayal. Mirabile dictu, the Republicrats were on OUR side against the plutocrats and oligarchs, arrayed against us in a phalanx of Demoblicans.

So in fact there was more difference than usual between the "two major parties". When the corporations banged on the door, the Republicrats' knees DID NOT hit the floor. The Demoblicans knees buckled in record time. And with ill effect that will prove unmatched in the history of our nation.

And spare me your tired whine that your failures "are due to people like me". Blaming others for your own shortcomings is the hallmark of natural born losers.

I might as well say that the sorry, sorry state our country is in is due to people like you and your "lessor of two evils" stupidity.

Break the endless cycle of abuse. Stand up on your hind legs. Vote for someone you actually want to be president.

"She displays symptoms of sociopathy."No kidding! ...

2008-10-03T20:25:00.000-04:00

"She displays symptoms of sociopathy."

No kidding! Not to mention narcissism!

I strongly agree with comments made by John Franci...

2008-10-03T17:49:00.000-04:00

I strongly agree with comments made by John Francis Lee above. Both McCain and Obama are AIPAC stooges who will put Isreal's interests above their own country.

Can we Americans have a president that has the intestinal fortitude to limit government power to prescribed Constitutional limits and who is not a surrogate for the Knesset?

It would be the dawning of a new era of American politics and perhaps at least retard somewhat our swirling descent into the toilet bowl.

BUT instead, we will have FOUR MORE WAR YEARS. Truly depressing.

Not one mention of China by either Biden or Palin ...

2008-10-03T17:43:00.000-04:00

Not one mention of China by either Biden or Palin and yet the $700 billion needed to buy Wall Street's toxic assets will most likely be raised through Treasury offers to Beijing. Our relations to China are critical to not only the day-to-day running of our economy but its future growth as well. AS the number 1 and 2 consumers of the world's oil and the top 2 producers of the atmosphere contributing (if not directly causing) global warming we must end our stupid competition with China. But no discussion at all.

Not Autism. She displays symptoms of sociopathy.

2008-10-03T17:41:00.001-04:00

Not Autism. She displays symptoms of sociopathy.

It wasn't always so. From 1976 to 1984 the debates...

2008-10-03T17:41:00.000-04:00

It wasn't always so. From 1976 to 1984 the debates were organized by the League of Women Voters, who tried hard to organize informative debates and were able to resist party pressure to water them down. Since 1988, however, the show has been run by the Commission on Presidential Debates, whose purpose in life seems to be to cut secret deals between the two major parties, with predictable results.

The so-called "Commision on Presidential Debates" is a private corporation headed by Frank Fahrenkopf, a former head of the Republican National Committee, and Paul Kirk, a former head of the Democratic National Committee.

In 1988, the League of Women Voters withdrew its sponsorship of the presidential debates after the George H.W. Bush and Michael Dukakis campaigns secretly agreed to a "memorandum of understanding" that would decide which candidates could participate in the debates, which individuals would be panelists (and therefore able to ask questions), and the height of the podiums. The League rejected the demands and released a statement saying that they were withdrawing support for the debates because "the demands of the two campaign organizations would perpetrate a fraud on the American voter."

During the 2000 election, the CPD stipulated that candidates would only be invited to debate if they had a 15 percent support level across five national polls. Ralph Nader, a presidential candidate who was not allowed to debate because of this rule, believed that the regulation was created to stifle the views of third party candidates by keeping them off the televised debates. Nader brought a lawsuit against them in a federal court, on the basis that corporate contributions violate the Federal Election Campaign Act.

In 2004, the CPD faced harsh criticism of their debate structure and technique. Citing the CPD's 32 page debate contract, Connie Rice on NPR's The Tavis Smiley Show called the CPD debates "news conferences," and "a reckless endangerment of democracy."

Juan, Juan, when will you ever just let it all out...

2008-10-03T16:37:00.000-04:00

Juan, Juan, when will you ever just let it all out and quit holding back?

While I agree with your malimning of Ms. Half-Baked Alaska (bet Johnny's the apple of her eye), I believe the carnage on display in St. Louie, on Wall Street and in our Congress speaks more to the total disrepresentative and disrepsectful (of the people)low state of our government.

Were John hewing to his principles and not his lust for the "one ring to rule us all" (being Prez probably is better than sex), he would quake mightily to even think of Sexy Sarah sliding into the Oval on a magic carpet woven of the finest 25th threads.

It sure gives me the willies.

Bad questions from an uninformed moderator - what ...

2008-10-03T16:27:00.000-04:00

Bad questions from an uninformed moderator - what else is new?

No questions about NAFTA and U.S. trade policy.

No questions about war and oil in the Middle East.

No questions about the increasingly consolidated media industry.

No questions about domestic surveillance and the Constitution.

No questions about the lost billions in Iraq and the rise of massive government contracting related to "Homeland Security".

No questions about corruption in government and the difference between illegal and legal bribery.

No questions about the lies that led to the invasion of Iraq, in which the press played a major role.

The press should be held accountable for what they've done - Bush could never have pulled this disaster off without their help.

As far as the "debate", the whole thing was a staged circus that ducked the real issues facing the U.S.

What would a real debate look like?

Probably your best bet would be to get Ron Paul to debate Dennis Kucinich, with the entire Daily Show news team taking turns moderating questions.

PBS host Jim Mcneil said it best in a question put...

2008-10-03T16:21:00.000-04:00

PBS host Jim Mcneil said it best in a question put to political pundits Mark Shields and David Brooks: "Is this 'GIDGET GOES TO WASHINGTON' or what...?"

SAY IY AIN'T SO, JOE!

R. Koke, Redondo Beach,CA

This is the best commentary I've seen on the "deba...

2008-10-03T14:26:00.000-04:00

This is the best commentary I've seen on the "debate"; cogent, insightful, funny, with appropriate disgust.

John "the lesser of two evils" above: Why wouldn't voting for the lesser evil be better than allowing the greater to gain control, which result we got in the last election due, in part, to people like you?

Juan, what a beautiful piece of analysis, wonderfu...

2008-10-03T14:03:00.000-04:00

Juan, what a beautiful piece of analysis, wonderfully expressed! If only you were in the MSM.

She, "winked like a bar fly."No, she winked like a...

2008-10-03T13:45:00.000-04:00

She, "winked like a bar fly."

No, she winked like a $100 hooker working the Republican National Convention right before she drops a rufie on you and robs you blind.

America be warned!!

Credit where it's due:http://campaignsilo.firedogl...

2008-10-03T13:00:00.000-04:00

Credit where it's due:

http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2008/10/03/its-official-gop-ticket-now-winky-and-wrinkly/

She does not know what "achilles heel" means. Watch it. She Does. Not. Know. What. It.Means.