Comments on Strange New Products: Nitrogen-Filled Tires for the People

The only reason That I can see for using Nitrogen ...

2009-05-25T01:34:05.449-07:00

The only reason That I can see for using Nitrogen in tires is to remove the water vapor. Which will expand when heated during driving. But all the hype about the o2 in the tire causing tire rot does not make since to me because at least 50% of your tire is on the outside anyway which is exposed to the outside air. So if the o2 is the cause of tire rot what are you going to do incase the tire everytime you park it in N2? Then what about ozone, UV rays, and all the other things that cause tire rot? And if the sats are true about 80% of the cars on the road are running on underinflated tires, will the belife that Nitrogen filled tires "dont leak" cause less people to check their tires less often increasing this "known problem"? I would like to see some bonified sientific evidence that Nitrogen filled tires rum cooler that a tire filled with standard "Dried Air" less than 1% water vapor. I would bet the difference in temp. would be less than a couple of degrees. Then If we are going this route of Nitrogen, what about other inert gases out there Argon?, CO2?, Helium? Ect I could see where helium would make your tires weight less so what about gas savings there? After all turning weight verses static weight takes over 2X's more horse power to get it moving. And to the persons that stated that they can tell a difference in the driving of their cars? Maybe this is the first time that you have kept your tires properly inflated? The only real difference that I can see out of this is the fact that you are removing the amount of water vapor in yours tires that will reduce tire temps, and pressure build up under extream driving conditions. Not your normal everyday driving condutions, and staying within the posted speed limits as you should. For me I will stick with dried air which without the water vapor wont cause your rims to rust " from the inside " althought unless you only drive on sunny days they get wet on the outside and I have never seen a rim rust from ithe inside out in my 40 years of automotive work. But I sure have seen many a rim rust or corode from the outside in. So the only plausable reason that I can see for the Nitrogen filled tire is for the removal of water vaper, nothing else.

This seems like a great idea to me. Particularly ...

2009-04-29T07:38:00.000-07:00

This seems like a great idea to me. Particularly because of removing water vapor (and even liquid water?) from the tires. Compressed air often has a lot of water in it, and pumping that stuff into your tires means it's got to be wet in there. Then as the tires heat up, more water goes into vapor (also known as steam) expanding the pressure more than normal and reaching through small cracks to the steel belts and causing them to rust. The presence of oxygen doesn't help in that regard also. It's a wonder tires last as long as they do. My last set did seem to be deteriorating from some internal process.

All I have to say to this is...I've had my car les...

2009-04-24T16:49:00.000-07:00

All I have to say to this is...I've had my car less than a year now which have nitrogen filled tires and all the tires have deflated way below their recommended kPa within the first 3months!Oh and try to find a place that uses nitrogen to fill them back up. Just today I had to have my tire replaced because of a very VERY small hole/crack in the tire wall that even the mechanic barely noticed and the air leaked out faster than my cars with compressed air.Needless to say, I made them fill the new tire with compressed air! It will probably last a year and a half before having to even refill it.

This nitrogen tire inflation is being adopted by s...

2008-11-19T13:15:00.000-08:00

This nitrogen tire inflation is being adopted by some of the major car manufacturers now eg Nissan's new GTR, Volvo. In fact FoMoCo has done research and suggested that using nitrogen will only work if the purity level of nitrogen IN THE TIRE is 95% or greater. They have shown that scientifically it does what it says. The other problem with compressed air is that it is not always clean, especially at the corner gas bars that use the small, stand alone tire inflators. The main problem is moisture or, a better term, water vapour. You see, it's the water, that when heated or cooled, will expand and contract the greatest in volume. Tires also run cooler with nitrogen. Nitrogen behaves the same way as any other gas (Boyle's Law). So for those of you who religiously check their tire pressures and top up at the local gas station, you may also be the ones with greatest changes in tire pressure solely based on the tire's temperature.
I think the problem that most skeptics have may be the purity level of nitrogen being used. If some places aren't even testing their results, then the customer is not benefiting. However, Purigen98 guarantees 98%-99% purity which results in tires obtaining a minimum purity in the tires of 95% -96%

It is true that nitrogen will cause less oxidation...

2008-09-03T22:30:00.000-07:00

It is true that nitrogen will cause less oxidation than air to the tire, cause less corrison to the rim than air, etc.

But it is also true that you will get better gas mileage it you throw out your empty soft drink can.

Just because something is true, doesn't mean that the results are actually practical muchless cost effective.

Steve seems so upset. Is it really necessary to g...

2008-07-13T07:28:00.000-07:00

Steve seems so upset. Is it really necessary to get emotional over using nitrogen v air? Maybe if you work for the nitro-fill industry.

The bottom line is that I've been filling my tires with air since I started driving and if you keep your tires inflated to the correct pressure (5 minutes a week to check on a Saturday morning) you will get all the benefits they mention nitrogen gives you.

It is true that most people drive around on under inflated tires. That's because they don't take that 5 minutes I mentioned earlier to check their tire pressure. Much less the 10 minutes it takes to drive to a station or fire up the home compressor if they have one. What then, makes anyone think that these people are going to take even more time out of their schedule to fill up on nitrogen once a month? What makes you think they are suddenly going to even CHECK the pressure? Total bullshit. No science or proof needed, just common sense.

You must have been absent the day they taught oxid...

2008-06-05T20:21:00.000-07:00

You must have been absent the day they taught oxidation. Do you really think you know more about tires and cars than the engineers@Volvo,Nissan,MBZ,GM,and every major tire mfg in the world. I would like to hear your opinions on Radial Ply Tires. Some find it helpful to research prior to responding. Why is a 22% reduction of a gas that has an electron affinity a bad thing?
Please check element #15 and #16 on Periodic Chart and you will find out why it does work.
please consider also:
HEAT
MOISTURE
PLY SEPERATION
Oxidation
TPMS Sensors

for you compressed oiled air is fine. I do not think N2 filled tires would help much in a fiery crash, however they might help prevent it.

seems like you might be your own ignorance and bullshit victim
good luck in the fifth grade.

steve

Those people who believe that there is scientific ...

2008-05-25T09:38:00.000-07:00

Those people who believe that there is scientific evidence that nitrogen-fills offer a proven benefit are kidding themselves. There is none! Tires rot from the outside in, not the reverse. Air is already 78% nitrogen. If the nitrogen fill is accompanied with new valves or tires or special rim/bead sealants (as a friend of mine just received), you would be hard-pressed to say the decreased loss is not from the better seal than it is from the use of 95% nitrogen (which, as a smaller molecule) should leak out thru the rubber tire quicker than oxygen. Yes, a nitrogen filled tire is less like to catch fire from the inside (which never happens on an automobile anyway) and the better filling aparatus will put in less water vapor. But none of this real logic is gong to keep people from being scammed...or from buying breast enlargement cremes, herbal supplements, copper or magnetic bracelets, etc. And...that is great because these fools are happily supported our economy with their self-delusions! I, personally, think we should fill tires with farts...dense gases that will be even less likely to leak; we would be sequestering some pretty harmful gases; you would minimize the chances of people from stealing the air in your tires or just letting the air out, etc. Any potential investors for my idea???

I just found this with reference to all the chem m...

2008-05-01T10:52:00.000-07:00

I just found this with reference to all the chem majors talk about gas diffusion blah blah blah.... in english here it is.

Independant test showed a decrease in presure loss with nitrogen filled tires. Not a big difference but still.

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2007/10/tires-nitrogen-.html

I am undecided on the values of Nitro filler tires...

2008-05-01T10:43:00.000-07:00

I am undecided on the values of Nitro filler tires. We have it on all the cars we sell at my dealership. The panthlet has a diagram that shows the Nitro molecule is larger than the Air one. Maybe its not so much a larger molecule but some other factor that helps them maintain the pressure longer. I have heard my service department gets significanly less calls about low tire pressure warning lights comming on. (I live in an area where it can go from -15 to +15 in a few hrs.)

As for the "filling" issue... If deflated to 5psi remember that 78% is already nitrogen. So of that 5psi really onle 1.1psi is 'air'. So then they fill it with prue nitro, say 42psi. That means that only 2.6% is 'air'. Now if theu do the double fill methode then of the remaining 5psi only .13psi is air so after the refill with nitro your down to .3% air.

Of course my math skills suck so I may be wrong.

Either way..... If its cheap I see no problems as there are undeniable benifits such as less corrosion and such.

The car dealer put this crap into my new tires wit...

2008-04-30T07:49:00.000-07:00

The car dealer put this crap into my new tires without asking. So what?, i'll just ride the same as before and not worry about it.

Thnaks for the interesting thread. I have read all...

2008-04-15T09:10:00.000-07:00

Thnaks for the interesting thread. I have read all the posts and here is my 2cents worth. If moisture is a concern (and it's not to most folks) use an in-line air dryer on your home compressor. The cost of said item can be less than the cost of Nitro. With that said, I imagine most tire shops have a dryer on their compressors already to exented the life of their pnumatic tools. I also have read in large trucks of the use of antifreeze in tires to prevent the moisture from freezing and damaging the tires or acting as a counterweight. Enough said - I have access to nitrogen here at work (I work for the phone company) and the only reason I would consider using it in tires would be the speed at which I could inflate the large truck tires on my army surplus truck, but on second thought, the time it would take to drive the truck to the yard, connect a regulator to the tank and hose, it could spend inflating 5 of the ten tires on my ugly truck. Vote with your wallet and time will tell.

The biggest question here is how do they fill the ...

2008-02-10T14:48:00.000-08:00

The biggest question here is how do they fill the tire with Nitrogen and remove the O2 at the same time. As we all know, the tire has O2 when it is placed on the wheel. The answer of filling the tire with N2 and then lowering it to 5 psi and then redoing this doesn't hold true. The O2 is still there, or am I just too cynical? I wouldn't spend more than $5 a tire for something like this but then again $25 (with the spare) is half a tank of gas. I think I need more information!!

I have read all the postings here and have to add ...

2008-01-23T17:34:00.000-08:00

I have read all the postings here and have to add my 2 cents worth - I use Nitrogen - I am not in the tire industry or nitrogen supply business

1. Nitrogen according to most here and i experienced, seems to retain its pressure longer. So paying what I do here in Oz $5 a tyre to keep my pressure regulated longer is a benefit.
2. Here in Oz they - the tire supplier tops them up for free. They have better maintained equipment than the local "gas" station where gauges are regularly dropped and run over. No its more likely to be a better reading.
3. Likewise if they run cooler - then the pressure is more constant - but not every one agrees that they do.
4. For $5 a tire over the life of the tire, it saves me bending down and getting my hands dirty checking the tires. Hey people pay more than that for a fill from a full service gas station
5. I believe the ride is better - so I paid $5 for that belief, have people pay more for Coke vs Pepsi because of a "belief"
6. My last set of tires lasted 90K kilometres I never got that out of a set before - I know thats not scientific. it may only be because the tire inflation was maintained correctly.
7. Here in Oz they give me cool red valve caps. Far better than yukky black caps. - hey I think its better than paying $150 a wheel for mags...

At $50 a set (see Saturn dealer offer above) it might be a bit steep.

So I am a "sucker" but I am happy with the result and I keep my hands clean, and my pressure up - after 3 months its never down more than 2 whatevers (lbsor KP's??)

I just got a set of 4 x Michelin XM 1+ with Nitrog...

2008-01-06T15:28:00.000-08:00

I just got a set of 4 x Michelin XM 1+ with Nitrogen filled in all of them. They gave me Red Valve Caps as that's apparently the standard in in Aussie Automotive Industry. I was told that I don't need to check my tyre pressures, just bring the car in every 5000k's for a check and balance.

Classic - big V8 Hummer commuter cars, fill the ti...

2007-12-20T19:28:00.000-08:00

Classic - big V8 Hummer commuter cars, fill the tires with N2 to save gas. Save yourself 20k and drive a Focus filled with good old free air. YMMV.

Any good quality filling system purges the oxygen ...

2007-12-19T16:32:00.000-08:00

Any good quality filling system purges the oxygen out through a double fill. The tire is deflated to 5 pounds and then inflated back to the proper setting. The tire is then deflated a second time to 5 pounds of pressure, and again reinflated back to the proper inflation. This achieves the purity levels needed.

I heard of this a while back, but never gave it mu...

2007-12-15T21:47:00.000-08:00

I heard of this a while back, but never gave it much thought. I just bought a new set of treads and they were nitrogen filled for free (I'm sure I paid for it) at purchase. They gave me the little green stem cap to remind me to ONLY use nitrogen. Having spent a few years working for a tire company (no endorsemnet here, but I spent a few "GoodYears" working in tires) I called on some of my old co-workers to ask about this. Many tire failures we saw wre due to under-inflation...supposedly nitrogen does stay in tire longer avoiding this problem for the most part. The over all increase in pressure retention is about 20%, or 6 to 7 psi in a 35psi tire. The loss of that pressure will fatigue your sidewalls, and allow premature tread wear. Fuel consumption will also increase as pressure gets lower. On the average, if you keep your tires at the proper pressure with nitrogen, or just the discipline of checking on a regular basis you will probably save the same amount in tire and fuel costs as what the nitrogen filling will set you back. No big $$$ savings, just some convenience for $50. The breakdown of the rubber and moisture damage to the rim...if you plan to have the tires and rims for more than 60 years you'll see the differance. Putting tubes in your tires can save the rims too, but no-one is pushing for that! Spend your money on nitrogen or spend your time checking pressure and you're likely to have the same results. "You Make The Call!!"

Writing from a university dept of chemistry.... wh...

2007-10-26T11:11:00.000-07:00

Writing from a university dept of chemistry.... where I'm a faculty member. These nitrofill services have been discussed and proven bogus in our dept long ago. The most notable reasons are described by Graham's Law of effusion/diffusion. Tires filled with 100% nitrogen do lose air slightly faster than those filled with conventional air hoses.
Oxidation and breakdown from air containing 21% oxygen is negligible.
Best advice... Check and maintain proper tire pressure regularly. That'll save you money...
Don't spend what you can save on
a scam like nitrofill.

Note: With race cars and large airliner tires, there is an advantage to nitrofill with regard to helping reduce tire flammability in fires.

There's problems with some of this stuff. For one...

2007-10-08T15:07:00.000-07:00

There's problems with some of this stuff. For one, I accidentally filled my first set of tires with Nirtoglycerine instead of Nitrogen. I had a blast! :) Then I accidently used Nitrous oxide. That was a laugh! :)

Seriously, where can we read research where Nitrogen molecules are bigger than oxygen molecules. Both are a single pair of atoms (o2 for oxygen N2 for Nitrogen).

Speaking empirically, I had a tire that kept going low on air. I switched to N2 and the tire stopped going low on air. Around here, I can fill my tires for $5 each and they'll maintain the N2 forever at no add'l charge.

I bet, however, that the tire shop does NOT purge the air out of the tire before filling with N2. It's a difficult process to suck out all of the street air, even if you break the bead and empty the air pressure. There'll still be air in the tire.

Hey Tire Guy,Why don't you give a link to the peer...

2007-10-04T07:19:00.000-07:00

Hey Tire Guy,

Why don't you give a link to the peer reviewed scientific literature proving that nitrogen filled tires is of significant benefit to the general public and then also tell us you're not in any way associated with the folks marketing or selling this stuff. I don't doubt that nitrogen is superior to air - but the question is does the performance difference justify the $40 cost per car? Am I better off checking my tires at home monthly and using regular moisture laden air from my own electric compressor - or - do I have them refilled at the nitrogen dealer only once or twice a year? Where is the proven mileage benefit in the scientific literature? Are my rims really going to oxidize and fail within 10 years from air? Wouldn't that mean the product is defective and the manufacturer should be sued? Will my tire oxidize from within and fail within 5 years - wouldn't that also mean the product is defective? You make some valid points - but I am highly skeptical. I also work in the scientific field and many of the claims about basic chemistry and physics posted by other folks are generally correct. You condemn all of them in one broad sweep. Your motives are highly dubious.

The auto service shops aren't making any headway w...

2007-08-16T19:35:00.000-07:00

The auto service shops aren't making any headway with the "transmission fluid replacement without changing the filter" scam, so this is the next best thing.

I'm already getting 75,000 miles out of an average set of tires, on a 5000 pound SUV. I don't want 'em to last any longer- I like buying new tires!

Seriously, I would not trust the validity of an arguement made by someone who claims that he can "feel" a difference when his tires have been filled with 95% nitrogen, versus 78% nitrogen with oxygen. That just ain't happening!

The comments regarding the value of high purity ni...

2007-04-14T20:32:00.000-07:00

The comments regarding the value of high purity nitrogen inflation of tires demonstrate a dangerous combination of sincerity and ignorance. Oxygen attacks the rubber (elastomer) molecule backbone which exists as a large number of reactive (unsaturated) sites that were not utilized during the manufacturers sulfur vulcanization (cure) molding of the tire. Expensive antioxidants are added to the formulation to protect it from oxygen attack. These are consumed with time and are actually washed out of the tire under certain pH conditions. The pressurized tire diffuses air (21%oxygen/79% nitrogen) continually to the atmosphere. While nitrogen has a lower atomic number and is thus claimed to permiate faster than oxygen, its larger size and its solubility in the rubber measurably slows its diffusion through rubber (Grahams Law defeated!)thus the improved pressure retention of high purity (+95%) nitrogen inflation. Inflation pressure retention equals improved tire durability and lower rolling resistance (better fuel economy).

If these pseudo experts would take the time to study the literature (ie peer reviewed studies by Baldwin, by Karmarker and Herzlich they would see some hard science to base opinions on rather that the cynical opinions that often are espoused by partially educated critics. Columbus and Copernicus had the same group mentality fighting to maintain the status quo and protect their many years of opinions that were in danger of becoming obsolete.

High purity nitrogen inflation offers important tire performance opportunities. Compare it the a synthetic motor oil vs the non synthetic. They both work under normal conditions, but under severe conditions, we all agree that the synthetic is preferred. Similarly under severe conditions such as high ambient temperatures, high speed, under inflation, innerliner damage you would certainly want the slower oxidizing (weakening) tire that would result from high purity nitrogren inflation. Don't be fooled by some nitrogen inflation processes. The dealer must follow a careful purge/fill protocol to give you at least the 95% purity supported by the scientific literature.

This is a money-making scam foisted on the public,...

2007-03-30T12:10:00.000-07:00

This is a money-making scam foisted on the public, pure and simple. Saturn wanted to charge me $50 for filling my tires w/nitrogen, so I googled it and found this discussion. From what I've read here and what I know about chemistry, the most valid reasons for using nitrogen filled tires appear to be (1) avoid starting a fire (hence use by airlines and race cars, where avoiding fires is critical), and (2) avoid corrosion (though I'm guessing the benefit here is very slight). My opinion is that all the other claims, especially leakage and maintaining more constant pressure over temperature, are bogus, since air is already 80% nitrogen. Nitrogen and Oxygen are right next to each other on the periodic table, for goodness sake. Do you really expect a tire with 80% nitrogen to leak 6X faster than one with 98% nitrogen? Come on. Nobody will ever find a scientific study to prove that. And gas is gas, and all gas basically obeys the ideal gas law of PV=nRT, as already pointed out here, so 80% vs. 98% nitrogen isn't going to make a lick of a difference in keeping the pressure constant over temperature. And the last poster makes a great point, which is, how do they get the initial air out of the tire before inflating it? That will certainly dilute the purity. Don't waste any money on this.

What I would like to know, is how do they purge th...

2006-12-02T12:02:00.000-08:00

What I would like to know, is how do they purge the air that is already in the tire before it is pressureized with nitrogen? Do they suck all the air out before addding the nitrogen?