Comments on The Sifford Sojournal: Anti-World Worldview

Thanks...Ill re-read.

2009-01-29T07:24:00.000-06:00

Thanks...Ill re-read.

Rob,Part of the Gospel is rejecting and thus separ...

2009-01-28T21:49:00.000-06:00

Rob,

Part of the Gospel is rejecting and thus separating from the world and its culture and systems (1 Jn 2:15; all the separation verses in the original blog post). If you look carefully at the original blog post and my comments, I believe I have already essentially answered your questions and explained our position. MichelleC brought up the same "Great Commission" verse: please see my response to her, especially the "1B" link.

Thanks,

-- David

David, I will look up those links....I am curious....

2009-01-28T20:48:00.000-06:00

David, I will look up those links....I am curious...do you not believe in witnessing to those that live in the cities...and by cities, I mean the cespools that you talk about. The people living in the ghetto, or even in "high-society" they all need Christ as they are on their way to hell.
This has been a challenge to me as I prefer the agrarian lifestyle..maybe not "off the grid" per-say, but simple and self sufficient. So it is hard for me to think about living in the inner city...that would be a....sacrifice! But nevertheless, we are told to go in to all the world and preach the Gospel. This is the place where you trade your goods, the jungles, the deserts, the arctic, the rural, and the cities.
I do think it would be a challenge to raise a Godly family in the city..but I believe it can be done. The question is really....why are you living in the city. Lot was living near the city for all the wrong reasons...he should have re-pitched his tent away from the city. He was not there to bring glory to God, he was there because it was pleasant to his eyes and flesh.
NOw to be clear...I am not trying to convince anyone that they SHOULD live in the city. Rather, discussing that just because one lives in a city doesnt mean that they are godless filthy sinners...though I believe the majority are. I do believe there are people , missionaries, called to live in the city.

Rob,If by towns you mean a place where people can ...

2009-01-28T17:17:00.000-06:00

Rob,

If by towns you mean a place where people can trade goods they produce, or even work in a generally agrarian skill, then I agree and have no fundamental problem with them. If by the godless, world-dependent, mammon-focused, Cain-decendant, cesspools of sin that are most cities today, then I do have a fundamental problem with them and believe the Bible is clear we should separate from them.

Separate to what then? As I stated in the original post and in a previous comment, God commanded man before the fall to dress and keep the garden (Gen 2:5), and then the work commanded Adam after the fall was the same only now more difficult (Gen 3:17-19). These commands were never rescinded and I believe are further exemplified by the fact that the Bible was written for those with an agrarian understanding.

The Lord's revealed will for our lives is written in the Bible, and we are to be obedient to His commands in it. That and fearing Him are the whole duty of man (Ecc 12:13). We try to let the Bible be our guide in as many areas of our lives, because we don't trust our own ideas as to how our lives should be lived as our hearts, which guide our minds and thus our decisions, are desperately wicked (Jer 17:9; Prov 4:23). Obeying His commands will be our biggest witness, because they will actually show forth in action our faith (ie. be able to be seen and seen as different from the world). After that, if His secret will is that I be sent to a city to preach or some-such, I believe it would 1) be specific to me at that time, and He would lead me to that; and 2) be after I was living properly unto Him; otherwise, if I'm disobeying Him in my everyday life, why would He send a disobeying servant (other than to chastise me) and then what kind of witness for Him would I be?

BTW, we did not particularly want to live an agrarian life; and in fact, we were well on our way in our fairly successful worldly careers. But, by God's graces and mercies, we believed the Bible was clear on the matter, and further, by God's graces and mercies, stepped forward to do what we believe He has commanded; although now, the Lord has graciously granted that we begin to see the many, many spiritual and temporal benefits to being obedient in living this lifestyle, and begin to see more and more the world for what it is.

If you are still curious beyond what I have said in the original post and in the various comments on it, I would encourage you to go through the Underground Church class linked in the original blog post and Michael's offgrid series linked in my reply to MichelleC's comment.

-- David

HI,I am intrigued by your views off being off-grid...

2009-01-28T13:44:00.000-06:00

HI,I am intrigued by your views off being off-grid mostly. I see your point of "If someone decided to stop supplying me water" idea. But I began to think of many places in scripture that mentions believers living in towns.
I agree with the many benefits of living a simpler life and more agricultural. But I don't see the scripture stating that that is how believers are SUPPOSED to live. Do you believe that those who live in cities are not believers? The city is really the last place I would want to live, personally, but what if the Lord called me to the city to be a witness to him?
Is living a simpler life, in the country something I just like. Is it easier for us to just find scripture to support our ideas than to read and pray for the Lords will in our lives...whatever that may be?
Just curious on your thoughts....
God Bless!
-Rob

Hi MichelleC,The "Separatism as a Fundamental Prin...

2008-09-25T16:00:00.000-05:00

Hi MichelleC,

The "Separatism as a Fundamental Principle" articles are a good resource for yours and other questions regarding separation at http://michaelbunker.com/offgrid.html (please note that they are listed in reverse order). Please see the 1B article (http://michaelbunker.com/2008/08/separatism-as-fundamental-principle-1b.html) which answers specifically your question.

Thanks, and may the Lord guide your studies.

-- David

I am new to all this but our family is thriving t...

2008-09-25T14:19:00.000-05:00

I am new to all this but our family is thriving to live more simpler and Government free..

But from a Bible point of view..I am wondering how we can fulfil the Great Commision (Matthew 28:16-20) and be the salt/light to this ungodly world if we are so separated? Thinking back to when the Pilgrims came over to America on the Mayflower and the Sepratists did not want to be on the same boat so chosed to remain on the Speedwell and we all know how that turned out..
Thoughts?

Wow,Well Anonymous, I don't think I could reject t...

2008-05-13T14:24:00.000-05:00

Wow,

Well Anonymous, I don't think I could reject that idea any more. First of all "it seems to me" isn't history, and it isn't fact. In fact, animal husbandry, agriculture etc. is covered very extensively in the Bible, and not at all from Cain's line. Whether Seth was nomadic or not is hardly the point since God went on and operated through the progeny of Abraham. I and all true Christians today, are from the line of Melchizedek and not from the line of Seth anyway, though that may be the line our carnal man came from. However, the Bible says next to nothing about the life of Seth, much less that he was a do-nothing nomad. Where Jaques Elull got the whim to make this up, I don't know. Extra-Biblical speculations on Seth's life generally are spouted by the Gnostics.

Elull was an anarchist and a universalist (all humans are being saved by Christ, no matter what they have done) - and though I might tend to agree with him about the evil nature of most of the Technological society, the guy was just a heretic - and that is fact.

I find it interesting that the Bible can say so much about proper music, husbandry, agriculture, etc. and someone can conclude that people are really just supposed to "do nothing".

Too much dust on the Bible in my view.

I do have some of the Foxfire books, and they are very good.

Michael

Hello,I guess it sort of depends on what you mean ...

2008-05-13T10:27:00.000-05:00

Hello,

I guess it sort of depends on what you mean by the word nomadic, but I would answer that I guess I just don't see in the Bible the command or even idea that followers of Christ should be nomadic; and in fact I would say I see something else, in the command to dress and keep the garden (Gen 2:5) and the work commanded Adam after the fall (Gen 3:19), in Abraham and his herd of animals (Gen 18:7), in David being a shepherd (1 Sam 16:11), etc. I don't see Christ being nomadic per se either.

And thanks for the Fox Fire books info. I have heard about them, and I think someone around here has at least some of them; and I've heard they're very good.

-- David

I am wondering if the nomadic life would be more b...

2008-05-12T23:52:00.000-05:00

I am wondering if the nomadic life would be more biblical. It seems to me the animal hubandry, music, smithy and agriculture came from Cain's line. Seth, the Godly one, did "nothing" but live a nomadic life. My understanding of this is that Cain, seperated from God, sought some sort of identity and as such constantly created things. Seth, being Godly, did not need to create - only worship. Jaques Elule is one author that I know of that proposed this idea. Any thoughts.

Also, on a practical note, if you get a chance look for the Fox Fire books, they have great stuff on "plain living." Dressing hogs, moonshine, making a cabin etc.

Cheers