Comments on Travel Tales from India: Messing Up with what gets Written Even in Dilbert ...

Anonymous, I know a few people out of IIT myself, ...

2005-09-24T15:13:00.000+05:30

Anonymous, I know a few people out of IIT myself, one being my husband and I met him there. I know ins and outs of IIT system.

For my nephew there is no undue pressure but it took the sail out of us when one fine day out of blue we found that he may not even be eligible to write the exam.

My husband was hell depressed at IIT and we do not look at it with any rose tinted glasses.

Still, if my nephew wants to write one more time, he should be able to. If he does not get through, he will join whatever he gets, including a BBA course we have in mind.

The post is written on the working of HRD and as a reference my nephew gets mentioned.

Thanks a lot for all the concern you have shown in your post and the time you took. When my nephew reads them, he feels very encouraged.

Hi Mridula...I empathize with your cousin's stuati...

2005-09-24T06:31:00.000+05:30

Hi Mridula...I empathize with your cousin's stuation and I completely agree he should be given a second chance. At the same time this rat-race to prestige, job offers, fame, scholarship, US education and whatever else that the IIT degree is supposed to confer upon you seems to be at a point where the rewards are no longer worth the heavy investment and hard work needed to crack one exam in life. In my opinion the indicators of success in later life begin very early in life at home and not by entering any IIT. The quality of parenting and attitudes developed in the lower school years play a recurring theme in a child's life path. These recurring patterns will determine how well the child does in his chosen life track...whether he takes IIT path, gets an MBA,goes for corporate life, or gets into academia, or becomes a tennis player, or a violinist.

Many book shave been written about attitudes and behaviors that are correlated with success and there are even concepts like EQ that measure them. The problem with Indian parenting in India today is that many parents desire the best results for their childen (e.g. top 100 JEE rank) without even realizing that it is their input to the child over the years that has already determined the potential of the child's performance on the JEE. Coaching classes are therefore a way out for the parents to make up for their own deficiencies in the upbringing of their child and that is why such classes are so much in demand. But at the same time this over-rigor can significantly over-stress the child, damage the child's self concept and his clarity of purpose in existence (why am I on this planet? What is my purpose?). Honestly, its not worth it. There is no point perturbing your equlibrium with the real world. An exam itself should never become larger than life and I dont think it was ever the intent of the JEE to be a monster exam.

If you read one of the very recent issues of Businessweek magazine, it says that the future of India rests not on the IIT graduates but on the graduates of the so-called second tier schools like MIT, Manipal etc. The output of these institutes is now considered pretty good...good enough to use productively for India's research and development. India itself is now playing on the world level. So it should tell you that these schools also produce engineering talent that is sufficient to play on the world level. India is slowly undergoing a process where the availability of ggod engineering education will look more like it is in the US and although everybody in the US knows MIT, Stanford and Caltech are awesome, no person in the US would be stupid enough to discount a degree from, lets say, Cal Poly or Arizona. In fact I heard the students from Cal Poly (Pomona CA) beat the heck out of IIT JEE toppers in the international Physics olympiad.

I would strongly encourage your nephew to look at other engineering schools in India without any reservations. Find the school that resonates with his internal pulse of life interests and go there (you will be surprised to know that a lot of IITans I know were very different people before they joined IIT. The IIT education and hanging out with peers in dorms changed them...many times for the worse)

Anonymous, thanks a lot for for pointing out the b...

2005-09-21T14:25:00.000+05:30

Anonymous, thanks a lot for for pointing out the board marks discrepencies.

Only problem is not all boards are created equal.G...

2005-09-20T21:12:00.000+05:30

Only problem is not all boards are created equal.

Getting 80% in Tamil Nadu state board is *childs play* - where as it is quite difficult in UP, Bihar.

TN has 2000 ( 100% marks) in Maths in 12th board exams. Can any state beat that ?

These new rules are just too stupid - but we Tamils will welcome it because it is quite a no-brainer to get 60% here.

Karthik, we agree on 1 :)2. To the individual it d...

2005-09-20T15:44:00.000+05:30

Karthik, we agree on 1 :)

2. To the individual it does not matter, even with 6.00 CPI they will get a job whereas without IIT degree it may be difficult if it is not some good degree they get.

3. I agree there is burnout but if so many people compete for so few seats at that tender age, it is bound to happen.

People even manage CAT, they will manage the new JEE. And compete fiercely ever after.

Alex a win win situation for so many people chasing so few seats? You tell me. I can't see any.

I guess a lot has been said both for and against t...

2005-09-19T18:17:00.000+05:30

I guess a lot has been said both for and against the decision.

Perhaps what is needed is to intiate some form of debate especially when the decision involves the future of so many young people.

Both the systems have their own pros and cons.....a debate perhaps would help evolve a system that incorporates the best from both and makes it a win win for all who have a stake

1. agree with the point on rules being changed mid...

2005-09-19T15:29:00.000+05:30

1. agree with the point on rules being changed midway through the year. anyways, now that's out of the way.

2. noticed this in IITM - most people who come after hard and long years of coaching (typically from Hyd, Kota, etc.) don't seem to do well in IIT. it's typically people who've undergone not-so-rigorous coaching and with 1-2 attempts who do well.

3. The burnout factor is large. A large number of students are putting in so much time, money and effot into getting into IIT that once they come there they are burnt out and waste away their lives.

These things are hoped to be corrected by the new pattern which is more conceptual and less "muggable".

anyways, check out my post on how the new system is actually good.

Anirudh, thankfully the decision to implement it i...

2005-09-19T09:34:00.000+05:30

Anirudh, thankfully the decision to implement it immediately has been averted.

Teri, we feel Indian bureaucracy is extra special but they postponed the implementation of this decision by an year.

Poison, thank you for your support.

Thank you all for your support and comments.

YAY!!!!!

2005-09-18T19:07:00.000+05:30

YAY!!!!!

This sounds like such a frustrating and heartbreak...

2005-09-17T20:30:00.000+05:30

This sounds like such a frustrating and heartbreaking story. How typical of bureaucracy.

I agree it's unfair to those who dropped a year. I...

2005-09-17T17:06:00.000+05:30

I agree it's unfair to those who dropped a year. I hope that isn't implemented.

it may be affecting teh HRD after all.. he might h...

2005-09-16T22:54:00.000+05:30

it may be affecting teh HRD after all.. he might hv a kin studying who by virtue of being related to Mr Minister mnges a 60 % + and cribs that he can't make it thru IIT coz of teh crowd.. Mr Minister on seeing his kins plight decides.. this much stress on my poor lolu... i need to do sumthoing..!! SLASH... easy ... announce a rule.. half the problem is dealt with.. get the kin to the top most coaching insti .... he migt as well try getting the papers too.. would save the others a lot of trouble!!!!

seems to be a really stupid rule... the school education is so theoretical that many students despise it. That could lead to poor grades. They slog for the IITs as thats what India offers best in terms of technical studies.. not fair on any institute to put a cut off for 60 %...

Anirudh, when my nephew (and others like him) drop...

2005-09-16T16:57:00.000+05:30

Anirudh, when my nephew (and others like him) dropped an year, we were not aware that the very criteria may change. That is the root cause of my rant.

Did the survey take into account the 10th marks and discrepencies if any? I anyway believe in second chances in life, but we may differ on that.

Have the coaching institutes for CAT gone away? I hope you understand the logic of demand and supply?

I am not sure when Alka (she is my sis) will be able to check this, but I still stand by her advice, create more world class institutes! For a population like us 7 is pathetic. Why are we aming for some change and not big differences?

Apart from being unidimensional I have heard, many companies that come to recruit to IIT say, students lack in communication skills too.

Mridula,IIT has done research on this and the corr...

2005-09-16T16:15:00.000+05:30

Mridula,

IIT has done research on this and the correlation factor between a student's performance in the boards and his performance in IIT is greater than 0.9 and so, almost perfect. Whereas, the correlation between his AIR and performance in IIT is 0.2.

I don't mean to say that somebody who doesn't do well in his boards isn't intelligent or interesting or talented, or anything like that. But the fact remains that students who do poorly in the boards almost always do poorly in the IITs- the stats show this.

Alka,

I think the problem will be solved to a certain extent. The pressure, of course, shall remain but the IITs might be succesful in selecting "better" students- according to their criteria. The exam pattern is being changed and its being made more analytical. Check out the JEE-2k6 paper. I think it might be interesting.

Poison, thanks for your concern. We know IIT is no...

2005-09-16T13:45:00.000+05:30

Poison, thanks for your concern. We know IIT is not the end of the world but still it was the suddeness of the decision thatprompted me to write this.

Ine, thanks for sharing your brother's experiences with me. There are so many reasons one may not perform well once or even twice.

Ganga, thanks a lot for your concern and sharing your experiences too. We are not so hung up on JEE but the sudden change in norms did come as a surprise. And this post was a reaction to that.

Mridula,First of all..I'm very sorry for your neph...

2005-09-16T12:18:00.000+05:30

Mridula,
First of all..I'm very sorry for your nephew.. I can understand the feelings of IIT aspirants!!I also tried for IIT JEE in late 80s...but I got 2256 rank..Then I opted for EAMCET(AP Engg entrance)and got my BTech(ECE)from JNTU...
Preparing for the prestigious IIT JEE Exams has become a big business and students can spend on it anywhere up to three to four years.
And yeah,I believe the change introduced in the eligibility criterion will harm the interest of IIT aspirants.

I don't know much about this either, but it's a pi...

2005-09-15T19:46:00.000+05:30

I don't know much about this either, but it's a pitty that they changed the rules like that from one day to another. And that so many now don't have the chance to get in IIT anymore. Personally I don't think those grades in 12th should count, determination and willpower are so much more important to get a degree than the grades you get in 12th. I remember that my brother didn't have that good grades in highschool and that his teachers tried to discourage him to study engineering and architecture at university, saying he wasn't good enough. He got into uni, graduated a few years later and right now he is a very successfull engineer/architect, all because of his determination and willpower.
So I think think it's sad your nephew doesn't get the chance to prove himself at IIT. I hope he will get other chances to do other great things.

i am sorry for ur nephew. he must be devastated. p...

2005-09-15T18:47:00.000+05:30

i am sorry for ur nephew. he must be devastated. perhaps they will modify the so called modifications of rules made on the JEE. please dont pressurise ur nephew on this matter. give him time. there are many good colleges in india which are really good though they may lack the iit brandname. its not the end of the world. after his ug he can go for the mother of all exams, the cat, perhaps. cheer him up...ciao mridula..

Ashish, thanks for coming by and your kind words. ...

2005-09-15T10:03:00.000+05:30

Ashish, thanks for coming by and your kind words. And specially thnks for the tip that our president reads his mails.

Anirudh, Alka is my sister and I guess she said a lot. Do you think coaching institutes for IIMs have gone away? And who assigned those negligible chances to those with 54% marks?

Anon, I am really not worried, whether he gets into IIT or not, but he wanted to take one more attempt and now that seems to be in doubt. It makes me angry. From your comment you come across one of those sane heads from IIT (another one is my husband :) I have met a few who thought if their JEE rank was higher than someone, they should also be able to beat that person at TT. And could never understand why it was not so. Ours is such a big country and I do not thnk there is a lack of talent anywhere.

Didi, nice to see you here in my area after all.

Lily, thaks a lot for your kind words.

Emma, I am stunned by the suddenness of this decision. Yesterday I was actually searching blogs to see what was written and finding so little I got fired up.

Mridula, I am really sorry to hear how this is goi...

2005-09-15T07:44:00.000+05:30

Mridula,
I am really sorry to hear how this is going to affect your nephew. I am sure it is rather difficult on him at this point of time. I know a lot of kids of that age do tend to neglect their plus two and concentrate on the competitive exams. Which is why I disagree with what Anirudh has to say, that there is a correlation between how you perform in board and how you perform at the entrance. I am not sure if this change is for the good or the better; I am really far removed from the exam scene. But you are right - the timing is absolutely wrong. And even if they do want to introduce changes I think it should be applicable for students who have just got into their 11th class - they are the ones who can work towards the goal keeping in mind the changes in the format of the exam.
I do hope the confusion clears and better sense prevails on the HRD. For those who cherish the dream of an IIT, I know it wouldn't make sense to say there are other career options out there. But honestly there are, especially these days. And given the fact that your nephew's interests are so varied, I am sure he will shine in any field he puts his heart into. I do wish him the very best.

I don't know anything about IIT specifically, but ...

2005-09-15T02:18:00.000+05:30

I don't know anything about IIT specifically, but I do know how frustrating it is to work hard toward a certain goal and have the whole game change just as you reach it.

It sounds like your nephew is very well-rounded and with your support will succeed regardless.

Anirudh you are right about unidimensionalism of s...

2005-09-15T01:47:00.000+05:30

Anirudh you are right about unidimensionalism of so called briilliant brains of India. This is forced upon youths by our parents. How many parents are willing to invest their time, energy and money to transform us into Sania Mirza, Sachin, Bhupati, Remo or Sonu Nigam? They will not even leave us alone to pursue our dreams! As far as my nephew is concerned, Mridula was not writing about him, he got mentioned as the reaction of this stupid action. Otherwise he plays guitar, violin,casio, has a good hand for basketball,football, cricket, goes to Gym every alternate day, draws well,dances well,designs his own clothes, is well informed, holds his own in any discussions, be it politics, sports, films or books, and CAN tug at many heartstrings of opposite sex, but till date he refuses to :-)Therefore if he sleeps for 4-5 hours, that's understable.
The problem will not be solved with the new examination "pattern" also. Because whatever pattern they will choose, many lakhs will compete for few thousand seats. The problem doesn't be solved by elimination tactis but by opening more and more world class institutes in our country.

Mridula,I agree this is completely asinine and yea...

2005-09-15T01:29:00.000+05:30

Mridula,

I agree this is completely asinine and yeah the JEE system is completely broken. Putting lipstick on a pig is not going to make it look pretty, and putting lipstick on a pig is exactly what this effort looks like to me !!

I hope your nephew gets a chance to write the JEE after this mess is sorted out.

Having said that, IIT is really only one examination and an overhyped brandname. Admittedly, things get easier for you with the brandname, but other colleges are good too !! Since I graduated from IITB in 2000, I have had a chance to interact with a lot of engineers, and while IITians are usually not bad, other college students are bright and knowledgeable too, sometimes more so than their IITian counterparts.

This is really the start of your nephews career and its not his UG degree that will decide his chances of success or failure in the profession he chooses. If you start thinking this is the end of the world, he'll take it really badly.

IMO his goal should not be to go to IIT, but to go to the best college that admits him and do really well there.

All the best !! I hope things work out for your nephew. I am glad that he has a doting aunt like you :-)

First, the IIT topper this year was somebody who w...

2005-09-14T23:44:00.000+05:30

First, the IIT topper this year was somebody who was attempting the exam for the first time.

Secondly, the system isn't working properly. The stats, of course, will not change because of a change in the pattern of the exam. Studying for JEE, however, requires a great deal of study. People give up everything just to get into IIT which isn't healthy at all. The amount of work your nephew is putting in is scary. Students who come here haven't read books, played sports, seen movies, talked properly to friends for two, sometimes three or four years, and are rather unidimensional.

After studying that hard, people are often quite unenthusiastic about learning when they come to the institute. Also, students often don't understand completely what they're being taught at coaching centres. They've seen a lot of problems at their coachings and if a similar problem appears in the JEE, they manage to do it.

The new format is going to introduce many analytical questions and reduce the syllabus which means one will not have to go crazy studying for the exam and the effect of coaching centres will decrease to a large extent. The ratio of the students appearing to the students passing, will remain the same but coaching will not help a person much. Nobody is jealous of coachings but these coachings are making students' lives hell and the quality of students since the coaching boom has steadily worsened. Also, not many people can afford coaching.

Besides, it has been noticed that there is great correlation between a student's performance in IIT and his board results. Of course, it does not mean that a student getting 54% cannot make it through the JEE but his chances will be negligible.

The two attempts rule has been introduced because most guys who're giving the exam for the third or fourth time are not very good. It is true that the AIR-1 in JEE-2003 was a third attempter. But his performance in the institute has been just average.

I agree that disqualifying students from giving the exam in the middle of the year is unfair. They should have changed the pattern of the paper but introduced the other rules at the end of the year.

Hi Mridula,Tragedy and emotional stress on your ne...

2005-09-14T23:21:00.000+05:30

Hi Mridula,

Tragedy and emotional stress on your nephew is quite justified and understandable. Though I do not agree with HRD's decision to temper with IITJEE including cut-off % for 12th, it is not going to affect anybody (just that student have to take care of 12th as well now, and yes, competetion and coachings are never going to go away) seriously. However, the unfariness with students like your newphew is completely undemocratic. HRD should permit student who have taken their 12th exam before decision was made. I am sure there are many students like these and a cumulative action/PIL can be justified on grounds of equal opportunities. HRD may or may not check their emails but out president definitely does. A serious email in serious tone is likely to get some attention, hopefully. In a way, it is a just highhandedness or carelessness of HRD which resulted in ignoring this issues, and theoritically they should not have option to accomodate students who have taken high-school exam before year 2007, which I understand is the year of implementation of this policy. Though, with various examinations systems, 60% is itself not fair acrros the boards.

-Ashish
PS: came via desipundit. first time.