Comments on Intentional Disciples: The Shack: A "Christian" Novel? Or God as a Jolly...

I agree with you christine the concept of a loving...

2008-11-18T22:21:00.000-07:00

I agree with you christine the concept of a loving and forgiving God is true but the whole book really steers away from hell and punishment from ones sins., i dont get why people think they can take that as a good example!

Your concerns about "no hierarchy"in the Trinity a...

2008-08-06T04:52:00.000-06:00

Your concerns about "no hierarchy"in the Trinity are also a deep concern for me. According to Scripture, Jesus was heard because of His reverent submission to His Father. He obeyed His father to the point of death. We are commanded to follow Christ's example of obedience and submission.These truths have become very unpopular in our society. Another problem I have is the book's trivialization of sin. It seems that we should just let everybody off the hook because God is a really nice guy that wouldn't hurt anyone. This is completely contrary to the God of Scripture who is a consuming fire. I fear for those who would see themselves as equal to God, expecting no consequences for their actions!!!

Re: The comments about "relationship" and the thre...

2008-07-04T14:43:00.000-06:00

Re: The comments about "relationship" and the three persons of the Holy Trinity-- duly noted,but we must remember the essential Catholic Truth, that the Holy Trinity is made up of three persons-- in other words, we must not lose sight of the personhood of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- if we did, we'd surely be missing out on allot, especially our own retlationship with the three of them! Thanks, and God Bless!

It's good Augustinian and Thomistic Trinitarian do...

2008-06-25T15:05:00.000-06:00

It's good Augustinian and Thomistic Trinitarian doctrine that the persons of the Trinity 'are' their relations. In Augustine and Thomas, 'relation' is a logical category (taken from Aristotle and made substantive). Moderns, some of them liberal, but also Papa Ben himself, commonly say that the persons of the Trinity are 'relationship'. The term doesn't come from the colloquial use of 'relationship', but from ancient Christian tradition.

Francesca (conservative RC)

My husband Gary read the book, and he read several...

2008-06-24T12:54:00.000-06:00

My husband Gary read the book, and he read several sections of it aloud to me.

A handful of mitigating factors can be found as to the fanciful, sloppy theology: "Papa" turns back into a masculine presence at the end (though for my taste it was too little too late), and the protagonist (whose daughter has been murdered) is encouraged along the pathway of a positive, "clean" grief process.

However, there was one passage that Gary read to me that I (as a "conservative Catholic", I guess) found exasperating. There's a scene in which all the Persons of the Trinity are present with the man, discussing the nature of their (the Trinity's) internal relationship. I don't have a copy of the book to quote, but I remember being struck by the phrases "no hierarchy... only relationship... It's the relationship the makes us what we are..." - something close to that. It seemed simply to be the author's personal contemporary fantasy of the Trinity - perhaps how he personally related to or envisioned the Trinity, but presented in a story-stopping preachy style that makes the sympathetic reader sit up and listen while the author Teaches You Something. I was put out both by the content and preachy tone of the section.

Also, the thought occurred to me that the author's picture of "relationship" within the Trinity excluded the one foundational relationship that tradition teaches us about God - the relationship between the Father and the Son. If the author is a Christian, his (at best) fanciful personal vision or (at worst) reckless heretical speculation undermines the traditional understanding of the nature of the Trinity at precisely the time that we need such an understanding to undergird our notions of the family.

That's my $0.02.

Sherry, I heard of The Shack for the very first ti...

2008-06-24T12:09:00.000-06:00

Sherry, I heard of The Shack for the very first time just a month ago, and your post is the first mention I've noticed on a Catholic blog.

Obviously the book has struck a chord, so I'll be interested to find out what's so compelling about it. Who are its readers?

Just a reminder:We ask that all commenters identif...

2008-06-24T11:15:00.000-06:00

Just a reminder:

We ask that all commenters identify themselves here and do not comment anonymously. Thanks.

Anonymous, As a Catholic, I find the book, as it h...

2008-06-24T10:30:00.000-06:00

Anonymous,

As a Catholic, I find the book, as it has been described, "deeply troubling." It strikes me as theologically sloppy and heterodox. Does that not bother you? Sherry is not slamming conservative Catholics. Rather, I think she is noting that their strong commitment to doctrinal orthodoxy would give them problems with a book that plays very loose with essential matters of the Faith.

I do think that what you perceive as "slams against 'conservative Catholics'" are simply Sherry's efforts to point out that any time Catholicism becomes embedded with an ideology of any type it comes dangerously close to being more faithful to its conservatism, neo-conservatism, liberalism, traditionalism, evangelicalism, etc. than to Jesus Christ. Sherry is very fair in her criticisms of both left and right because the sins are, ironically, the same on both "sides." Let us renew our commitment to friendship with the Lord Jesus.

Peace,
Joe

Anonymous:I wasn't slamming "conservative" Catholi...

2008-06-24T10:19:00.000-06:00

Anonymous:

I wasn't slamming "conservative" Catholics or evangelicals at all. Didn't dream of it. I was simply observing that those who take historic orthodox belief seriously (and therefore tend to fall into the conservative camp) find such hugely popular "Christian" books such as The Shack intensely frustrating.

All I was asking was "why are books like the Shack so compelling for so many Christians when they don't correspond to historic Christian belief in so many areas?" Which is an essential conservative question, you know.

Since I do take Catholic teaching very seriously, in the overall spectrum, I probably do fall into the conservative end of the Catholic spectrum myself although I avoid political labels because I don't think that really thinking with the Church fits into American political categories at all.

The debate over at Commonweal was about the whole validity of the idea of "intentional discipleship" which simultaneously raised nearly as many hackles on conservative blogs. Seems the concept of discipleship is capable of offending Catholic across the spectrum.

Which makes more sense now that the Pew survey reveals that 40% of Catholics don't even believe "in a personal God with whom a relationship is possible."

Why the slam against "conservative Catholics" Sher...

2008-06-24T08:57:00.000-06:00

Why the slam against "conservative Catholics" Sherry? I've not read any critiques of the book from them. I would suggest that it would also make "liberal Catholics" crazy because it's pietistic or sentimental or whatever.

I get a little tired of your slams against "conservative" Catholics when you, for example, were tied up and burned at the stake over at the Commonweal blog.

The most consistent critique of The Shack has been from Mark Driscoll at Mars Hill. He drilled it, mocked, it, etc.