Comments on Secondhand Smoke: Your 24/7 Seminar on Bioethics and the Importance of Being Human: Their Hatred of Palin is Not About Energy Policy: ...

80 - 90 percent of babies with Down's Syndrome wil...

2008-11-21T15:16:00.000-08:00

80 - 90 percent of babies with Down's Syndrome will be aborted by their parents. Rich Lowry of National Review said it best when he describes this as "...the dirty eugenic underbelly of America."

Okay Royale, maybe for you, but you would be an ex...

2008-09-12T08:10:00.000-07:00

Okay Royale, maybe for you, but you would be an exception. The reaction to Palin among liberal/progressives was nuclear and way over the top, "beyond the pale" before that so called "vitriolic" speech where she reminded us what Obama had said. What nerve to call that vitriolic after what the left has been saying about her.

I think calling it vitriolic suggests that Palin initiated the back and forth Royale. I don't think that's what happened at all. It was the Obama campaign and the left/media who started it. There are 30 hack attorneys in AK with snow plows and backhoes digging up dirt on her right now. She pushed back and showed they can't take it. I have a suggestion for Obama and the left. If he can't take it when he dishes it out, get off the ticket and make way for someone who knows how to take a punch as well as throw one-someone like Hillary Clinton. I can't stand her, but if we are going to face real bullies with real weapons, I'd sure rather have her commanding the forces instead of Obama.

"Texas Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison who is a fisca...

2008-09-12T05:51:00.000-07:00

"Texas Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison who is a fiscal conservative, and who I believe supports the war, the Bush domestic anti-terror policies, gun rights, but who supports abortion rights? Would we see the same crazed reaction to her candidacy as to Palin's? I highly doubt it"

I think we would have.

Prior to Palin, I was "on the fence", but leaned towards Obama. Palin. My first experience with Palin was her vitriolic speech before the Republican convention. Granted, those speeches are intended to be pep rallies, but she really crossed the line.

That speech scared this fiscal conservative away from the McCain ticket. Again, I could not care less about her stance on abortion (I soooo hate the term "pro-life").

I don't see how any pro-choice people could be ang...

2008-09-11T17:46:00.000-07:00

I don't see how any pro-choice people could be angry at somebody for making a choice.

Okakura, Royale (where have you been Royale?) mayb...

2008-09-11T17:24:00.000-07:00

Okakura, Royale (where have you been Royale?) maybe you are right about liberals, maybe not. What if the nominee was Texas Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison who is a fiscal conservative, and who I believe supports the war, the Bush domestic anti-terror policies, gun rights, but who supports abortion rights? Would we see the same crazed reaction to her candidacy as to Palin's? I highly doubt it.

James; Please stay relevant. Thank you.

2008-09-11T12:05:00.000-07:00

James; Please stay relevant. Thank you.

I think royale's post about Gov., Palin accurately...

2008-09-11T10:12:00.000-07:00

I think royale's post about Gov., Palin accurately reflects the opinion of the large majority of liberals. Her political and personal abortion stance is simply not the primary concern (though it is for some).

The ethical 'elephant in the corner' for parents c...

2008-09-11T10:05:00.000-07:00

The ethical 'elephant in the corner' for parents chosing to have a child with Down's or a variety of other congenital maladies will of course be the possible financial burdens (or coverage preclusions) imposed in the future by health insurance companies. The Genetic Non-Discrimination Act is a hopeful firewall against such future discrimination, but I'm not sure as yet whether it will have requisite staying power given the enormous influence of the insurance industry lobby.

Tried your link but it didn't work though google t...

2008-09-11T08:23:00.000-07:00

Tried your link but it didn't work though google told me to try this one which was successful.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/09/sarah-palin-dow.html

I remember while I was studying Greek History the story of the Spartans and their ability to walk away from deformed children. I was young then and was appalled that any human being could do such a thing. For me nothing has changed.

In the bigger picture though it is easy to see that such heavy weights as "[b] Dr. Andre Lalonde, executive vice president of the Society of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in Ottawa, worries that Palin's now renowned decision may cause abortions in Canada to decline as other women there and elsewhere opt to follow suit [b]

The title reads [b] Canadian Dr. Warns [b]. Talk about control reversal. Now these Dr.s actually think they can [b]Warn[b] folks to knock of a child. The Spartans never died. They traded their swords & armor for for scalpels & white surgical smocks.

Another telling remark about this Drs view that he has all the answers and those poor woman don't understand their choice.

[i]"choice of abortion and that greater public awareness of women making choices like Palin to complete a pregnancy and give birth to their genetically-abnormal baby could be detrimental and confusing to the women and their families.[i]

[i]"The worry is that this will have an implication for abortion issues in Canada," Lalonde tells the Globe and Mail [i]

Oh! A break from the "meat is not murder" posts.W...

2008-09-11T08:20:00.000-07:00

Oh! A break from the "meat is not murder" posts.

Wesley, Wesley, Wesley...just who is this "they" in "their hatred"?

I hate Sarah Palin as a potential VP. It has nothing to do with abortion politics or Trig but everything I have seen about her thus far - in particular, what she's said at the RNC. She disgusts me and would shame this country in the Oval Office.

Check out the LA Times article today, featuring a ...

2008-09-11T07:45:00.000-07:00

Check out the LA Times article today, featuring a leading OB/Gyn in Canada bemoaning the fact that less women will have abortions now because of Palin keeping her Down syndrome child. There is no doubt about the connection between discussion abortions and baby Trig. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/09/sarah-palin-dow.html

Okakura, I think I understand your point. At leas...

2008-09-10T21:35:00.000-07:00

Okakura, I think I understand your point. At least I hope I do. As you say, it probably is a shame, but it happens all the time. When single issues advocates speak up on other issues, they lose people to their causes, or at least lose listeners, and end up hurting their cause.

Donnie: "Do we treat all humanity as exceptional o...

2008-09-10T21:14:00.000-07:00

Donnie: "Do we treat all humanity as exceptional or do we marginalize some while ignoring their value to human society where human love is the special ingredient."

Unfortunately, human morality is an incredibly versatile and slippery entity -- easily contextualized away whenever convenient. The "marginalization" (I.e "deaths") of some 200,000 innocent Iraqi civilians also betrays a commitment to human exceptionalism. These deaths were largely preventable (Iraq was never the front for battling terrorists) and just as offensive to me as selectively aborting a handicapped child. But many on the Right simply accept this as an inevitable part of wars, which are themselves considered unavoidable. This is not consistent morality IMO and does not provide for sure footing on the elusive moral high ground.

With respect, I don't feel that the Dems have any ...

2008-09-10T21:05:00.000-07:00

With respect, I don't feel that the Dems have any legitimate shot of winning the hearts-minds battle for middle America. The GOP has so effectively and narrowly defined the terms of the morals argument (abortion, gay marriage, expansive gun ownership rights) that any attempt by Obama to widen the discussion (unnecessary war, illegal torture, broken healthcare system, underfunded school systems, sensible immigration policy) is already falling on largely deaf ears.

Even the alleged sexism angle vis-a-vis Palin is being cast through an pretty narrow moral prism. After all, the GOP's guiltiest pleasure - Ann Coulter - has said in all seriousness:

"I think [women] should be armed but should not [be allowed to] vote. No, they all have to give up their vote, not just, you know, the lady clapping and me. The problem with women voting -- and your Communists will back me up on this -- is that, you know, women have no capacity to understand how money is earned. They have a lot of ideas on how to spend it. And when they take these polls, it's always more money on education, more money on child care, more money on day care."

"If we took away women's right to vote, we'd never have to worry about another Democrat president. It's kind of a pipe dream, it's a personal fantasy of mine, but I don't think it's going to happen. And it is a good way of making the point that women are voting so stupidly, at least single women. It also makes the point, it is kind of embarrassing, the Democratic Party ought to be hanging its head in shame, that it has so much difficulty getting men to vote for it. I mean, you do see it's the party of women and 'We'll pay for health care and tuition and day care -- and here, what else can we give you, soccer moms?'"

Have you seen anything MORE sexist coming from the liberal press than this? And where is the moral outrage from the Right for this claptrap? Not evident on these boards...

Where I would disagree with you is that the Obama ...

2008-09-10T20:52:00.000-07:00

Where I would disagree with you is that the Obama camp or the Democratic Party is behind the attacks. Even if some of them hold sucha draconian view of the intrinsic value of a disabled person's life, it would be political suicide to make an issue of it because the majority of Americans (incl Dems) see compassion as noble. And, yes, even though a statistical majority of Americans favor a woman's right to chose, once again the majority of Americans (incl Dems) do not believe that abortion is a good thing or an act with no moral significance.

And my earlier remarks on the culture war were perhaps ill-stated or over-stated. I don't mean to throw Wesley's 'culture war' thesis under the bus; I just disagree with its application on this particular issue. that's all.

The point I am making is that the Democratic Party...

2008-09-10T20:29:00.000-07:00

The point I am making is that the Democratic Party in their attacks upon Palin for Trig's birth and the other attacks on her motherhood are actually cutting themselves off from Apple Pie America and the mom next door that is an executive administrator in a Bank or works shift work at a car factory. For me a man that has a working wife , I also find it demeaning that some folks just don't get it. You are correct about the overall fact that the issue transcends party lines but the fact is that Palin's desire to treat her DS child as an equal family member has brought out the people like Wilson or Fowlers that are so intense in their remarks that they have made birthing a Downs Syndrome Child A political issue. Not to mention they are missing the point that the DS child is a portion of the debate here. Do we treat all humanity as exceptional or do we marginalize some while ignoring their value to human society where human love is the special ingredient. .

Donnie: Thanks for the post. My only point has bee...

2008-09-10T20:06:00.000-07:00

Donnie: Thanks for the post. My only point has been that this particular issue clearly cuts across party lines. Yet the large majority of posters here do not acknowledge (or agree) with this statement. I'm not trying to be argumentative; actually pointing out that this is one of those issues where there can be fruitful 'bipartisan' understandings & alliances. But only if we're not seduced back into a cultural war mentality that has to have a clearly identifiable 'bad guy" (or "bad side"). All I'm saying.

I appreciate your thoughts on this topic and the explanation.

Hello Okakura.I think the reason that Wesley is pu...

2008-09-10T19:47:00.000-07:00

Hello Okakura.

I think the reason that Wesley is pushing hard on this issue is because he does feel that even the weakest members of human society can be exceptional and worth of human respect. This seems to transcend politics for Wesley. He can correct me if I am wrong but Exceptionalism is the human condition that he is addressing in that, as a society we can support the Trigs of this world without harming that condition, with malicious articles such as the ones Wesley is offering for us to discuss. .

Don: "I think he should keep occupying the huge sp...

2008-09-10T19:40:00.000-07:00

Don: "I think he should keep occupying the huge space he does and not get bogged down in areas he's not needed in (we pro-lifers don't need another abortion thinker)and water down what he does best. If you do Wesley, I think that's the end of your dialogue with all the people who don't agree with social conservatives on the other issues but would listen on your issues. And if you come out progressive or liberal on those other issues, you lose your voice with conservatives too who would agree with you on your issues but not other ones."

Don: Why would rational adults expect their fellow citizens to hold consistenly orthodox views, and when they don't, throw out the proverbial baby with the bath water? What a shame...

Bottom line: The Democrats haven't figured out tha...

2008-09-10T19:25:00.000-07:00

Bottom line: The Democrats haven't figured out that just because laws are passed for certain protections in society that doesn't mean the majority agrees with those laws or the flaunting of them. There is a huge hunk of North America that doesn't believe that a life started in the womb is not a life and feel that such a life has worth. All the legal eagles in the world can not change that gut feeling with laws and calling me a fool for believing that all human life has worth. They also haven't figured out that the conservative portion of their party and the people of faith should not be drowned out by people that class a working mom as less then a working dad. Lots of dads in this world today raise their children without any help from a woman because that is the type of society we live in. Divorces are common where the woman doesn't even want the children they brought into the world so the father raises them. Something tells me that Mr. Palin is getting help from his wife and vice versa. However would we ridicule Mr. Palin if there were no Mrs Palin and he were running for President?? The Democrats are missing out on Apple Pie America because they really don't get it.

As for Trig and his family. He will be a blessing because his family will view him as loved and special. Folks like the author of the article above, seem cold & sociopathic in their attacks on the Palins and their child. To bad our Key Latch Children didn't get that type of love and support.

As for Fowler's observations, "whose primary qualification seems to be that she hasn't had an abortion." Did Fowler fall off a turnip truck and bang her head really hard. Great words to inspire confidence in the Democratic party with family orientated America.

I try to avoid the phrase "just sayin'" (but it's ...

2008-09-10T19:13:00.000-07:00

I try to avoid the phrase "just sayin'" (but it's so tempting to use it sometimes), but yes, that went beyond what I was getting at. Wesley can keep his cards close to his vest on anything he wants to, but I was sort of gently teasing about the fact that he's not leaving the liberals; the liberals are leaving him. Because they are being slimy. This process of good people realizing that the Left had left them behind has been going on for a long time.

By continuing to paint this issueas a conservative...

2008-09-10T19:09:00.000-07:00

By continuing to paint this issue
as a conservative vs. liberal issue, you are willfully ignoring 90% elective abortion rate for Down's Syndrome necessarily includes a proportional number or CONSERVATIVE women.

And no disrespect to the Palins, but many of you are failing to also remember the landmark work of the Kennedy family, specifically of Eunice Kennedy Shriver back in the mid-40's for individuals with developmental disabilities. (JFK had a mentally retarded sister.) Families like the Palins are the direct beneficiaries of their efforts.

You all decry the politicization of this Trig/Down's issue. Yet by ignoring the obvious statistical evidence that this issue cuts across political lines, you are guilty of the same.

Lydia, Wesley J. Smith conservative culture warrio...

2008-09-10T18:38:00.000-07:00

Lydia, Wesley J. Smith conservative culture warrior? That would be something, and I certainly hope not. I agree he's the good guy you say he is, but he'd have to get invovled in same sex marriage, pornography, homeschooling, school choice, sex ed, abortion, prayer in school, gambling, prostitution, the drug war and etc. He may share conservatives beliefs about human exceptionalism, but you never know where he'd come down on the other things.

I think he should keep occupying the huge space he does and not get bogged down in areas he's not needed in (we pro-lifers don't need another abortion thinker)and water down what he does best. If you do Wesley, I think that's the end of your dialogue with all the people who don't agree with social conservatives on the other issues but would listen on your issues. And if you come out progressive or liberal on those other issues, you lose your voice with conservatives too who would agree with you on your issues but not other ones.

I'm sure I went way beyond your intent Lydia, but I hope he holds his cards close to his vest on those other culture war issues.

It's really about prejudice against the disabled, ...

2008-09-10T18:25:00.000-07:00

It's really about prejudice against the disabled, but not that idiots like the Salon writer will admit it.

Oh I see you've already blogged about the Charen a...

2008-09-10T17:56:00.000-07:00

Oh I see you've already blogged about the Charen article