Comments on Secondhand Smoke: Your 24/7 Seminar on Bioethics and the Importance of Being Human: Dogs Prove Human Exceptionalism

It is interesting that you would use the term inte...

2008-08-24T01:58:00.000-07:00

It is interesting that you would use the term intelligent design (which is something that people who side with traditional religion-based morality people are told we approve of) to refer to human design. It's sacreligious, first of all, and it's rather scary to think that genetic engineering (not from a blank state, but with a think enough magic marker that it may as well be) is close enough to ID that people might get confused and think it's something GOd wants us to do.

That was Will Saletan's belief: God endowed us with the ideal of equality and the tools to finish the job, so we have some duty to perfect it. Is Saletan into ID? I thought he was a critic, just like I thought you were a critic of genetic engineering, so it is weird for the two to morph into one here.

Why don't we just stick with calling it Creationism, so that we don't get it confused with human genetic engineering as a form of intelligent design? It is at least as compatible with science and evidence and history as ID is, and less susceptible to confusing humans with God.

padrig: This is a very minor contretemp, n'est ce ...

2008-08-22T17:36:00.000-07:00

padrig: This is a very minor contretemp, n'est ce pas? The hysteria comment was in reference to your black smoke about my flogging fundamentalistic anti evolution by claiming that dogs are intelligently designed by humans, not your agreement about the wonder of dogs.

Let's see if I can get the wink right, because I am definitely icon impaired: ;) There, that only took me five minutes.

Laura: Since cats get us to do what THEY want, the...

2008-08-22T17:30:00.000-07:00

Laura: Since cats get us to do what THEY want, they are actually the highest life form. Surely no one would argue against KITTY EXCEPTIONALISM!

Also - I've thought a lot about our cats, and how ...

2008-08-22T17:18:00.000-07:00

Also - I've thought a lot about our cats, and how generations of cat-breeding that happened just because the cats that were responsive to humans and therefore attractive to them and able to be nurtured by them had an advantage over the feral ones. My kitties are experts on my husband and daughter and me. I read somewhere that people are likely to greet their pets before their spouses when they come home. That's true in my house, and it's because the pets know who is supposed to come home when and are invariably at the door waiting.

"Design is a process that starts with a blank page...

2008-08-22T17:13:00.000-07:00

"Design is a process that starts with a blank page."

Um, no, I don't think so. I don't know much about ID, and the reason is that I don't have enough background in life sciences to really weigh the arguments pro and con. But I do know that the concept of irreducible complexity does not start with a blank page. Maybe you can start from eyespots and point out a natural-selection pathway to eyeballs like ours, and maybe you can't, but either way you don't start with nothing at all.

Trust me Wes, I'm not the most humor-impaired pers...

2008-08-22T12:06:00.000-07:00

Trust me Wes, I'm not the most humor-impaired person in this discussion by a factor of at least one.

And (getting to the main point), I agreed with the bit about the dogs. Hardly a hysterical reaction.

What I called you on, and which spurred your hissy fit, was your repeated misuse of the term "intelligent design," which you now claim was ironic. If you really did, then I'd warn you that irony is tricky and you'd better learn to make the smirky face icon. ;)

Padrag: I didn't say it was a JOKE. I said it was ...

2008-08-22T09:25:00.000-07:00

Padrag: I didn't say it was a JOKE. I said it was meant to be humorous and ironic. I was subliminally referring to the hysteria out there about ID and the Discovery Institute, demonstrated vividly by your own reaction. Perhaps some gene therapy to improve your sense of humor would help.

Loosen up out there.

Wes, the other day I was in a movie theater and a ...

2008-08-22T07:54:00.000-07:00

Wes, the other day I was in a movie theater and a guy was sitting in front of me with what at first looked to be a date, but turned out to be one of those big dogs with long blond hair. That was odd enough, but then I noticed the dog was reacting to the movie. When the good guy came out, she wagged her tail, when the bad guy came out she'd growl and raise her back.

When the movie was over, I told the dog's owner I was amazed at her reaction to the movie.

"Yeah, so was I," he said, "She hated the book."

THAT, Wes, is a joke, aka humor.

"Everyone knows that dogs did not evolve, they were (and are still, technically) wolves that were intelligently designed by us."

THAT, Wes, is not.

padraig: Re the term ID: It's meant to be funny an...

2008-08-21T21:35:00.000-07:00

padraig: Re the term ID: It's meant to be funny and ironic. Grow a sense of humor.

As to your other points: Of course we didn't invent DNA. But through selective breeding we did create attributes we wanted in our canine friends, and we did it with intentionality. Or to put it another way, we intelligently designed dogs to meet human desires and needs.

I certainly agree that dogs are as they are as a r...

2008-08-21T21:19:00.000-07:00

I certainly agree that dogs are as they are as a result of human intervention. In fact I've often cited the efforts described in "Before the Dawn" of Russian scientists who effectively domesticated a type of silver fox in remarkably few generations.

However, this process is selective breeding, a hit or miss process. As such I find it curious you call this "design" of any kind, let alone "intelligent design." We did not design dog DNA or even alter it, we just selected which canines were allowed to breed and which puppies were culled. Design is a process that starts with a blank page.

Your use of this disingenuous term makes it appear you are more interested in flogging fundamentalist evolution-denying teachings than you are in describing the actual process of the development of the human/dog relationship. In fact, I believe that in selectively breeding dogs we do nothing more than act as agents of evolution.

Well O, if we did that, at least we would know it ...

2008-08-21T20:07:00.000-07:00

Well O, if we did that, at least we would know it is wrong. : )

We're also the only animals intelligent enough to ...

2008-08-21T19:11:00.000-07:00

We're also the only animals intelligent enough to quite literally destroy our own planet in a myriad of ways. Not so sure I'm really proud of this part of our exceptional status ;)

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks johnny...

2008-08-21T18:09:00.000-07:00

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks johnnydontdoit.

I agree with you Wesley Smith. This shoots down a...

2008-08-21T18:06:00.000-07:00

I agree with you Wesley Smith. This shoots down a boy is a dog is a rat theory because I will never expect a rat to convey feelings of happiness or loneliness. Likewise, I would never expect a dog to be capable of building a civilization. All animals are not equal. All animals are different and unique and humans are exceptional.