Comments on Secondhand Smoke: Your 24/7 Seminar on Bioethics and the Importance of Being Human: Wonkette Hits Palin on Trig

P.S.-Whoever heard of a "right to choose the kind ...

2008-11-15T09:40:00.000-08:00

P.S.-Whoever heard of a "right to choose the kind of child I want to have?" Is that in the constitution somewhere? Was that some part of the women's rights movement that I missed? Was Martin Luther King fighting for this on the side? Can we order children by mail, now? "$30,000- White, blond haired, blue eyed, male, approx. 1 day old, IQ 150, handicaps: none, layway available."

"I don't discourage diversity - if somebody else w...

2008-11-14T10:10:00.000-08:00

"I don't discourage diversity - if somebody else wants to have a mixed-race (or even mixed-specie) child, I'd defend their freedom to do so. But I'd also defend my freedom to be able to choose what sort of child I have."

Are you asserting that you would encourage your partner to abort if the fetus involved was of mixed race? If you are, at least you are being consistent.

Secondly, I would like to emphasize the fact that you, Joshua, actually have no say in what your spouse or significant other does in regard to her pregnancy. You do not have the right to decide what kind of child you want, because you cannot force the woman involved to have an abortion if she doesn't want to, just as men who do not want their partners to have abortions have little or no say in whether she has one.

Thirdly, "my right to choose the kind of child I want to have," is precisely what eugenicists wanted to do years ago.

Again, nothing is added to the zygote. It's not as...

2008-11-06T20:35:00.000-08:00

Again, nothing is added to the zygote. It's not as if there's a third mystery component that's added three months after fertilization that turns a non-human-being into a human being.

Can we start regulating other people as non-people, if all it is is philosophical? Dangerous ground, man.

"Sperm is a building block, not a human organism."...

2008-11-06T20:17:00.000-08:00

"Sperm is a building block, not a human organism."

And the zygote is not a building block because...?

"If we cannot prove that an embryo is a human being, if personhood is purely philosophical, then ANY of us can be considered a non-person."

But you can't PROVE anything with science, and therefore personhood is philosophical. Which is what I would have thought it was in the first place.

"As I've said, the existence of tetragametic chime...

2008-11-06T13:13:00.000-08:00

"As I've said, the existence of tetragametic chimeras and monozygotic twins makes the idea of the conceptus being continuous with the human person quite difficult for me to believe."

The "twinning" argument has been addressed time and time again, in the book EMBRYO, for example.

If we cannot prove that an embryo is a human being, if personhood is purely philosophical, then ANY of us can be considered a non-person.

Joshua, you still don't get it. Sperm is a buildin...

2008-11-06T11:10:00.000-08:00

Joshua, you still don't get it. Sperm is a building block, not a human organism. Is a ham sandwich "human" because it becomes incorporated into your body when you eat it?

Paul, I know because I have faith, just as you do....

2008-11-05T18:17:00.000-08:00

Paul, I know because I have faith, just as you do. I'm not like those atheists who instead that their position is based on the evidence - no god or gods exist, and I have faith in this.

safepres, I don't discourage diversity - if somebody else wants to have a mixed-race (or even mixed-specie) child, I'd defend their freedom to do so. But I'd also defend my freedom to be able to choose what sort of child I have.

bernhardt, perhaps you are right. We can't say for sure that sperm are not human beings (they are, after all, genetically unique human cells with the conditional potential to develop into that which we would certainly call a human being), and therefore every sperm should be considered sacred (although this also assumes that what is a human being is also intrinsically valuable - a premise I don't agree with).

Hello Bernhardt:: The trick for Joshua is that he ...

2008-11-05T13:20:00.000-08:00

Hello Bernhardt:: The trick for Joshua is that he can move goal posts by using his rather subjective negativity against the human that Joshua would execute as he sees fit.

The fact is that there is no clear beginning of a ...

2008-11-05T12:34:00.000-08:00

The fact is that there is no clear beginning of a new human being.

Which is actually an argument for erring on the side of caution, not for assuming carte blanche as you do.

As someone with a learning disorder, I would like ...

2008-11-05T09:33:00.000-08:00

As someone with a learning disorder, I would like to say that I like being a person with a learning disorder-it is part of who I am, and I am very happy that no test has been developed to detect NVLD before birth. I'm glad that I did not have parents like Joshua growing up, or ones like those who adopted a child from the same adoption agency as my parents adopted me from, who returned their son to the adoption agency once they discovered that he had a disability. In contrast to displays of such prejudice, my parents raised me, for better or for worse. Joshua-you are fooling yourself if you think that you are a tolerant individual, yet would encourage your partner/wife/significant other to abort based on disability. You are no better than someone who encourages abortion for babies who are of mixed ethnicity. Disability and ethnicity are both aspects of diversity, and your comments show that you are anti-diversity in at least one of those areas.

Joshua said:"Paul, I'm not going to reply to you b...

2008-11-04T21:25:00.000-08:00

Joshua said:

"Paul, I'm not going to reply to you because your arguments are so far from the topic that they are irrelevant."

That's fine Joshua. I realize that my comments were not in keeping with the general topic here, but I did not raise them myself. They were direct answers to your assertions. So therefore they are relevant.

If you are not willing to defend your atheism and empiricism, then stop making atheist claims that you cannot defend. And please stop making ethical charges based on your empiricism.

My first comment was completely relevant as it was a direct response answering your philosophically wanting position on "existence". My follow up was a direct response to your response, in which you made an atheist claim about the God of the Bible.

If theism/atheism, and your epistemology are off limits for discussion (subjects you yourself raised), then perhaps you should refrain from any further comment here.

BTW, anytime a person makes a claim to knowledge--especially on such a subject as ethics--it is always warranted to question their epistemology. For this is a most fundamental question. That is, please define and defend how you know what you claim to know. Indeed Joshua, how do you know anything at all?

Thanks, Paul

Wesley, after actually studying embryology and rea...

2008-11-04T19:29:00.000-08:00

Wesley, after actually studying embryology and reading quite a few embryology texts, I get the distinct impression that scientists think that a new human life cannot be defined to have began at any particular moment. Conception may be an important part of the early days of an individual, but hardly can it be said to mark the beginning precisely. After conception, the resulting zygote could form zero human beings, part of a human being, a placenta and a human, a placenta and two human beings. To say that a zygote is a new person may be a useful generalisation, but seems to be inconsistent with biological reality.

The fact is that there is no clear beginning of a new human being. Just like there is no clear time at which a new species can be said to exist. Science can only reveal what nature is - gradual - and only philosophy can put any sharp demarcations in that landscape.

Don Nelso Stated:"Then the lady said, "this is Sar...

2008-11-04T15:43:00.000-08:00

Don Nelso Stated:

"Then the lady said, "this is Sarah's mom." "Sarah Palin?" "Yes Sarah Palin." I would have never known. They seemed totally unchanged by the campaign. It's too bad there aren't more people like them in Washington. They reminded me of my grandparents who never seemed to struggle with their sense of self or impress people with how smart/intellectual they were."

Don't know if you watched Amistad http://www.thewitness.org/article.php?id=206 , Mr. Nelson. There is a line in the movie that I believe all humans of conscience and understanding of human exceptualism can equate to. It also relates to the ancestors of Palin's children.

In the words of Cinque replying to his lawyer John Quincy Adams who asked : In a riveting scene, Adams is preparing Cinque for his appearance before the Supreme Court and ends by asking Cinque about the state of his soul.

Cinque's response is quite remarkable. Through an interpreter he says, "I am not going in there alone. I am going in there with my ancestors. I will call into the past, far back to the beginning of time and beg them to come and help me. I will reach back and draw them into me and they must come. For, at this moment, I am the whole reason they had existence at all."

My complete statement was that each life at concep...

2008-11-04T15:28:00.000-08:00

My complete statement was that each life at conception has the ability to develop the mind body and spirit of a human being. Humans have spirit as indicated by the never give up actions of a Stephen Hawkings. That FACT is not mumbo jumbo. Leave it to you to leave out two thirds of my equation as per mind & body and use deception to marginalize the will to fight for life (Spirit to live), Joshua.

Joshua: Then you had better tell the leading embry...

2008-11-04T15:21:00.000-08:00

Joshua: Then you had better tell the leading embryology textbooks to change what they teach. They are misleading the doctors and scientists of tomorrow teaching that a new human organism begins at the completion of the fertilization process.

Paul, I'm not going to reply to you because your a...

2008-11-04T15:18:00.000-08:00

Paul, I'm not going to reply to you because your arguments are so far from the topic that they are irrelevant.

Donnie, your talk of spirit is mystical mumbo-jumbo.

bmmg39, actually, if you define 'hospitable environment' as 'one that allows the cell to develop into a person', then you could similarly say that an nucleated cell has that capacity (we've already reprogrammed them to pluripotency, so it doesn't seem impossible to reprogram them to a totipotent state - if the 'hospitable environment' was present).

As I've said, the existence of tetragametic chimeras and monozygotic twins makes the idea of the conceptus being continuous with the human person quite difficult for me to believe.

I know as a man, I have no 'choice' but I would ne...

2008-11-04T11:34:00.000-08:00

I know as a man, I have no 'choice' but I would never, ever want a woman that I impregnated to abort our child because of Down's (or for any reason, but I'm being specific). I'd rather take care of the kid by myself. The liberals version of humor is rarely funny.

Joshua: "Wouldn't it have also been in existence b...

2008-11-04T09:05:00.000-08:00

Joshua: "Wouldn't it have also been in existence before that too, as a spermatozoon and an ovum (or as a nucleated somatic cell and ovum, if a cloned embryo)?"

No. As has already been stated, a new human life begins at the moment of fertilization. Once sperm and ovum are combined, there is no mystery third "ingredient" or component that must be added. All an embryo receives after that point are nutrition and a hospitable environment -- two things we still need long after we're born.

Directly after the egg is penetrated by the sperm ...

2008-11-04T08:59:00.000-08:00

Directly after the egg is penetrated by the sperm and the new life begins and the IMPRINT of the formation of mind body and spirit is on the road to adulthood. Such is the life of any human fetus reaching forward to it's individual place in human society. If that child becomes a lesson of leadership or a lesson in how human leaders should treat those less fortunate, is the platform where true humanity will be founded.

How unfortunate that some folks would rather castigate the morals & ethics that Palin displayed in choosing to accept Trig with love and hope for her child instead of being it's death merchant.

Joshua said:"Note that I said 'whatever child I br...

2008-11-04T07:52:00.000-08:00

Joshua said:

"Note that I said 'whatever child I bring into existence'. A child, as a person, only comes into existence as their mind forms."

This is begging the question. Try demonstrating the truth of this assertion rather than assuming this arbitrary and subjective definition of "existence".

Joshua said:"No, I don't understand. There is no G...

2008-11-04T07:48:00.000-08:00

Joshua said:

"No, I don't understand. There is no God, so how can she be the primary cause for anything?"

You cannot possibly know that the God of the Bible does *not* exist. This is an inductive argument based on your bankrupt epistemology of Empiricism. Unless you can close the induction it is false, as all inductive arguments are unless they can be closed based on a finite number of factors.

And curiously, you refer to this non-existent god as a "she". Why? I suppose it's intended to be a stab against the patriarchal God of the Bible who identifies and reveals Himself as Father, rather than a mother figure which you probably would prefer.

As I said before, try again. You cannot get an "ought" from an "is". Your Empiricism cannot furnish you with truth. It is inherently flawed and wanting. You exchange biblical, divine revelation for this fruitless epistemology.

The Bible alone is the Word of God and has a monopoly on truth.

Thanks Donnie, you capped that thought off very we...

2008-11-04T05:57:00.000-08:00

Thanks Donnie, you capped that thought off very well. I couldn't agree more.

By the way Donnie, I met Sarah Palin's parents last night in the McCain HQ last night in Reno. We had a huge event and it was worth standing in the light rain before and walk through the pouring rain afterwards to see. I made the same observation to her about why the abortion feminists hated their daughter Sarah Palin. The Governor's life says that children and men are not obstacles to a woman's success in life. She liked it. The governor's parents are two of the most genuine, unassuming people I've ever met. When one of the volunteer coordinator's said to me "this is Sally" I just said "hi Sally, I'm Don Nelson." I thought she wanted tickets to Sarah Palin's event last night or a sign. Then the lady said, "this is Sarah's mom." "Sarah Palin?" "Yes Sarah Palin." I would have never known. They seemed totally unchanged by the campaign. It's too bad there aren't more people like them in Washington. They reminded me of my grandparents who never seemed to struggle with their sense of self or impress people with how smart/intellectual they were.

One more day of phone calls and literature drops and it's over. Every call, door knock, painted sign, putting literature on cars in church parking lots is to protect the next generation of 50 million babies, like Trig Palin, who are targeted for abortion and to protect the next generation from our generation's foolishness and the further instrumentalizing and dehumanization of human life. Not sure what's going to happen tonight, but it's all worth it.

"My dog does that too."Has anyone here denied that...

2008-11-04T05:14:00.000-08:00

"My dog does that too."

Has anyone here denied that dogs have minds? You're the one claiming that the presence of a mind means that a person's life possibly shouldn't be snuffed out at another's will. My point is that if that's the case, an unborn child shouldn't be murdered. Or even a born child.

"Anyway, the mind forms on a continuum, just as a human life forms on a continuum. I guess at some point, when the mind is self-aware or sapient, we can draw a line and say 'this mind is a person'." What point would that be, exactly? As a pragmatic matter, how would you detect it? Brain waves? Fetuses have measurable brain waves.

"At that point its genetic makeup is complete, the...

2008-11-04T04:46:00.000-08:00

"At that point its genetic makeup is complete, the sex it will be is determined, it is a unique and integreated indidividual complete on to itself."

If you knew the exact sperm and egg, you could also say that the sex has been determined and its genetic makeup complete.

"All of us began as a one cell human being called a zygote. "

Some of us began as two zygotes. Some of us have a twin who began as the same zygote. It seems far from clear to me that a zygote and the human individual are one and the same.

"Once one sperm unites with the ovum, at that moment - and not one nanosecond before - there is the complete set of DNA that defines one unique individual"

Nonsense. The nucleus of the sperm moves from the sperm cell into the ovum. That is all. The (pro)nuclei of the sperm and egg remain separate until the first mitotic division. I don't see how the distance the two sources of genetic material are from one another matters to the status of that material.

"She heard my voice before she was born and she recognized it. So when did her mind form, Joshua?"

My dog does that too. Anyway, the mind forms on a continuum, just as a human life forms on a continuum. I guess at some point, when the mind is self-aware or sapient, we can draw a line and say 'this mind is a person'.

"If they want to use the pretense that Joshua does that the egg being impregnated by the sperm isn't the beginning of life then they must deny that the swamp theory of evolution wasn't the evolutionary beginning of life."

This makes no sense. An egg is alive, and human. A sperm is alive, and human. No life formed, because none ended.

It is entirely logical to think that life began some 4 billion years ago, and life as a whole has never stopped since (although countless individual cells, and organisms, have died).

Blogger Helm Hammerhand said... ""Have we real...

2008-11-04T03:47:00.000-08:00

Blogger Helm Hammerhand said...

""Have we really stooped so low? Making fun of humans who happen to have a disabling condition; what a pure act of cowardice!""
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At the very least such comments are a cold act of a society becoming increasingly devoid of humanity. Helm.
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Helm also appraises correctly.

"Not so very long our nation fought a war about the principle that certain people of African descent were actually full humans. Our modern day storm-troopers are all for throwing out the lessons of history and murdering those who are not deemed perfect."
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I certainly am pleased to have all races embrace our common humanity.
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Helm astutely questions::
"What is the basis for this fallacious assumption that money and careers are somehow more valuable than a human life? You know what people say about assumptions? It makes an...."
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The point of hatred towards Trig & Palin's existence is the fact that Palin has reached such lofty status without breaking her moral code or ethics. I find that refreshing whereas some narrow minded guilt ridden feminists hate her for her success. Palin proves that ethics and morals are quantities that can be maintained on the road to individual success.