Comments on Secondhand Smoke: Your 24/7 Seminar on Bioethics and the Importance of Being Human: Kevorkian: "Let the Crippled People Demonstrate"

I have something similar in my living will. Shoul...

2007-06-08T05:22:00.000-07:00

I have something similar in my living will. Should my brain go, but my body be intact, please exploit my physical remains for medicine.

Yes, that includes pumping me full of HIV to test a vaccine.

Interesting perspective, Royale. Still, when the ...

2007-06-07T23:47:00.000-07:00

Interesting perspective, Royale. Still, when the novelty wears off and I cannot keep myself entertained, I'd take a lethal injection over self-starvation or 'counselling' any day.

"...dull and boring, just like existence as a quad...

2007-06-07T13:43:00.000-07:00

"...dull and boring, just like existence as a quadraplegic most of the time..."

With the development of both computers that can read eye movements (See Stephen Hawking) and cyber entertainment, a quadrapalegic could easily find an enjoyable life playing World of Warcraft, Second life, etc...

How many of us who are able-bodied spend too much our lives playing those. I don't think any of that is wrong, but our society is developing a lot of methods of mental escapism.

As many of these incurable debilitating diseases strike the body and not the mind, so long as the mind is intact, you could entertain yourself.

I know I would. ;)

...dull and boring, just like existence as a quadr...

2007-06-07T13:05:00.000-07:00

...dull and boring, just like existence as a quadraplegic most of the time...

Winston, how could my existence possibly be "dull and boring" when I have all the great entertainment that your shenanigans here provide? ;-)

We can just have at it on my now defunct blog if h...

2007-06-07T12:34:00.000-07:00

We can just have at it on my now defunct blog if he decides to go there.

Can't do it JacquefromTexas. That is a discussion ...

2007-06-07T12:07:00.000-07:00

Can't do it JacquefromTexas. That is a discussion that would never end. If Tony is interested, he can send me his e-mail and you send me your e-mail, and I will play matchmaker.

Wesley- Tony can mischaracterize the nature of God...

2007-06-07T09:58:00.000-07:00

Wesley-

Tony can mischaracterize the nature of God and blastpheme till he's blue in the face but I can't respond? This is topic has eternal implications!

Tony direly needs to understand the concept of justice vs. arbitrary forgiveness, and what is required to be redeemed from an eternity of firey torment, especially since he's such a big fan of rushing headlong into the hereafter.

May I please respond? Pleeeeeease?

Okay. No more Jesus talk, please. Thank you.Off t...

2007-06-07T09:30:00.000-07:00

Okay. No more Jesus talk, please. Thank you.

Off topic query: I was told when I was in the Netherlands researching FORCED EXIT that abortion is low there because the use of birth control is high. This is so because of public expectations. Men and women who have an unwanted pregnancy are made to feel ashamed for not controlling and managing their sexuality. In other words, I was told that peer pressure is the primaryh reason that women having fewer unwanted pregnancies in the Netherlands.

No more about that, either please.

Thank you all.

(He refused pain medication, because His suffering...

2007-06-07T08:53:00.000-07:00

(He refused pain medication, because His suffering was our redemption. His death and suffering is what merits us the hope of salvation- like the suffering of the dying in Calcutta (which Mother Theresa spoke of) is redemptive, and the sick and dying in America is also redemptive. Suffering is an inevitable aspect of the human condition and serves to make us better people, if we choose to accept it rather than hang ourselves in the closet. Now, this does not mean that we don't perform acts of mercy to alleviate suffering to the extent that we can (as Blessed Mother Theresa did), it's that what suffering we can not control will benefit our characters and our souls.

Jesus freely accepted His crucifixion, but He didn't scourage Himself or nail Himself to that cross. Freely accepting one's suffering (like choosing to live through a terminal illness rather than killing one's self) is a moral act or righteousness and submission, whereas self-murder is an immoral act of cowardice and selfishness. Jesus choose to accept His fate because it redeemed humanity. I choose to accept any fates that await me because it redeems me, and because I don't have the authority to kill a human being, even if the human being is myself. )

Wow, what a loving god! [/sarcasm]

Why can't he just forgive us? I wouldn't demand payment in suffering or blood if someone wronged me. Looks to me like I'm more merciful than your god.

And it wasn't even a sacrifice because he got his life back. And his death *was* hastened, because crucifixion leads to death after a coma.

(Actually, no it's not. If you succeed, it's not like authorities could prosecute you but if you attempt suicide or even threaten to do so, you are promptly detained by police officers and put in a mental institution until you are no longer a threat to your self.)

That just gives them more encouragement to succeed. Pro-life policies backfire yet again! Slightly off-topic, but did you know that the Netherlands has the lowest abortion rate in the world?

You worship a being (Jesus) who not only committed...

2007-06-07T08:01:00.000-07:00

You worship a being (Jesus) who not only committed suicide by cop, but had his death hastened (he died several hours before the robbers crucified on either side of him, according to your own bible).

You need a theology lesson, Tony.

"Jesus was offered a drink of wine mixed with myrrh as a mild analgesic which He tasted and then refused (Matt. 27:34; Mark 15:23; Psa. 69:21)."

He refused pain medication, because His suffering was our redemption. His death and suffering is what merits us the hope of salvation- like the suffering of the dying in Calcutta (which Mother Theresa spoke of) is redemptive, and the sick and dying in America is also redemptive. Suffering is an inevitable aspect of the human condition and serves to make us better people, if we choose to accept it rather than hang ourselves in the closet. Now, this does not mean that we don't perform acts of mercy to alleviate suffering to the extent that we can (as Blessed Mother Theresa did), it's that what suffering we can not control will benefit our characters and our souls.

Jesus freely accepted His crucifixion, but He didn't scourage Himself or nail Himself to that cross. Freely accepting one's suffering (like choosing to live through a terminal illness rather than killing one's self) is a moral act or righteousness and submission, whereas self-murder is an immoral act of cowardice and selfishness. Jesus choose to accept His fate because it redeemed humanity. I choose to accept any fates that await me because it redeems me, and because I don't have the authority to kill a human being, even if the human being is myself.

So Jesus accepting His fate for OUR SAKE was not suicide. His death was not hastened, but natural. Because He died earlier than the robbers do not suggest that His death was hastened. In fact, the breaking of the legs was meant to hasten death and Christ's legs were not broken (in fufillment of scriptures). The scouraging He endured was enough to kill Him before the cruficixion, which is why the Romans ordered someone to carry Christ's cross, so He would be crucified, not die of scouraging.

palliative care is quite dull and boring, just like existence as a quadraplegic most of the time

The existence of a quadraplegic is dull and boring? Say that to the face of a quadraplegic. I love that you condascend to make statements about the quality of the lives of the disabled based on your speculation (Being a quadraplegic doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me, but I am a statistician and I'm sure that doesn't sound like a lot of fun to many people). It's bigotted attitudes such as yours where assisted suicide slips right into euthanasia because the able-bodied perceive that killing a quadraplegic is acceptable because, hey, "their lives are dull and boring". And it's not like a quadreplegic has the ability to defend himself. Perhaps that's why the Nazis began with killing the disabled; like the predator goes for the weakest prey, the bigotted go for those least able to defend themselves.

As for *un*-assisted suicide, it's been legal for quite some time now

Actually, no it's not. If you succeed, it's not like authorities could prosecute you but if you attempt suicide or even threaten to do so, you are promptly detained by police officers and put in a mental institution until you are no longer a threat to your self.

How did Jesus NOT commit suicide? He knew exact...

2007-06-07T07:23:00.000-07:00

How did Jesus *NOT* commit suicide? He knew exactly what was going to happen, how to get out of it, and yet he still acted in a manner that would get him crucified.

Prostitution is victimless if it is properly regulated. Same with assisted suicide. And sadly, even with the best pain control, palliative care is quite dull and boring, just like existence as a quadraplegic most of the time. Some of them probably say what you want them to say to end the 'counselling.'

As for *un*-assisted suicide, it's been legal for quite some time now. Only doctors and vets are able to get the drugs needed for a peaceful death, though.

First attacking Mother Theresa and now Jesus Chris...

2007-06-07T04:14:00.000-07:00

First attacking Mother Theresa and now Jesus Christ. Wow! You're on a roll! I'll back away from you rather than get the residual shock from the lightning you have duly earned.

I want to address your ignorance about Jesus Christ properly, so I will return later to discuss that. Your belief that his death was suicide and that it was hastened is contrary to scripture and history. I suppose all of those people awaiting execution on death row are all committing suicide if they stop struggling against the courts?

But, let me address your first comment: I once considered myself a rabid libertarian, believing that anything an adult does, by themselves or with other consenting adults, is nobody's business. But then I realized that victimless crimes are hardly victimless. Many of them amount to coercion, extortion and desperation- and epitomize social injustice. I went to Tijuana and saw prositutes there. It's very sobering to see women knitting baby booties while waiting for a man to come along to violate their dignity and endanger their health. So, while my ideology said, "Prostitution! It's sex between consenting adults. How should that be illegal?" my conscience said, "This is exploitation of women. It destroys women and children and this sort of injustice should never be condoned by making this atrocity legal."

It's the same thing with legalizing suicide. It's a matter of social justice. Those that would choose suicide are those in need of real solutions: medication for depression, medical advancements in pain control, ad nauseum. I've had some pretty debilitating broken hearts, some that I doubted would ever heal- committing suicide wasn't an option for me, but who am I to judge, you say. Let the teenagers, divorcees, and others experiencing a loss of relationship or even a death of a loved one end their emotional turmoil through suicide! How is that justice?

Thank you very much for assuming so little of my character that you would think me the type to kill myself rather than endure hardship. Whether or not I have the fortitude has never been tested, but your assumption is greatly appreciated! We'll forgot that my personal moral fiber has nothing to do with the morality of legalized suicide. Any more ad hominem assumptions there, Tony?

And another thing:Why do you oppose voluntary euth...

2007-06-06T22:07:00.000-07:00

And another thing:

Why do you oppose voluntary euthanasia? You worship a being (Jesus) who not only committed suicide by cop, but had his death hastened (he died several hours before the robbers crucified on either side of him, according to your own bible).

Yet another example of pro-life hypocrisy and cowa...

2007-06-06T21:59:00.000-07:00

Yet another example of pro-life hypocrisy and cowardice. I can understand why you'd oppose murder - pretty much everyone does. But why oppose suicide? It's not like they're hurting anyone else. Why protect them from themselves? If you're going to appeal to side-effects, then they can be dealt with by the patient behaving obnoxiously towards family and friends. That way, his family and friends wouldn't want to keep him around.

Why are you insisting on owning the lives of others and insisting that they die 'naturally'? Should anything that can shorten life be outlawed, such as cigarettes? What about people whose religion forbids blood transfusions? Should they be allowed to follow their religion, or be forced to accept blood transfusions? Were Holocaust victims who committed suicide rather than be tortured to death being immoral?

And people like you, Jacque, frequently change their minds when they are in the hot seat and suffering unbearably.

Perhaps pro-lifers aren't pathetic wusses who take...

2007-06-06T20:54:00.000-07:00

Perhaps pro-lifers aren't pathetic wusses who take the easy way out.

I don't want to suffer a long, lingering death. But I don't want to be killed unnaturally either. Death is not my call.

There are moral limits to bodily autonomy- and that limit is when you intend to kill yourself or another.

Bernhardt, it appears to me that insisting that pe...

2007-06-06T18:43:00.000-07:00

Bernhardt, it appears to me that insisting that people suffer for the benefits of others is not compassionate. And even if good can *sometimes* come out of the dying process, why should everyone be forced to die naturally? Pro-lifers certainly aren't willing to lead by example. Why should anyone trust them?

quoteMother Teresa said that the SUFFERING of th...

2007-06-06T18:14:00.000-07:00

*quote*Mother Teresa said that the SUFFERING of the poor was beautiful. Hmmm. Sounds pretty damn sadistic to me. */quote*

Are you really that ignorant of Catholic theology? She was a Nun, she's not going to be speaking exactly as you may wish-- she'll be speaking in the context of her theology.

Go learn a bit before you start slandering folks, would you?

Winston Jen 2.0 writes:"Hmmm... That reminds me of...

2007-06-06T15:12:00.000-07:00

Winston Jen 2.0 writes:

"Hmmm... That reminds me of people like Wesley and the late Mother Teresa, who loved suffering, and believed that people have a 'duty to live' so that other people can use that as an incredibly selfish opportunity to 'look compassionate'."

Winston, we've explain to you many times that this is a gross mischaracterization of Wesley's position. His argument is simply that good can sometimes come out of the dying process, and that it is this sort of vision that we should promote rather than the nihilistic one that offers suicide as the only response. You are certainly free to reject that, but at the very least stop distorting it.

Perhaps it would have been more precise to call de...

2007-06-06T10:45:00.000-07:00

Perhaps it would have been more precise to call death his obsession, rather than his love. Certainly it is his fascination with it that (as he himself has stated) has provided his impetus, before all else.

Kevorkian has never been someone much interested i...

2007-06-06T10:22:00.000-07:00

Kevorkian has never been someone much interested in money or material comforts. His legal services were provided pro bono during the 1990s. He also did not charge for assisted suicide. He has usually lived in houses or apartments given to him for use by friends without rent.

His lawyer says he will now be making $50,000-$100,000 per speech. We will see if that proves as true as the lawyer's claim that Kevorkian wouldn't live to see his parole in 2007.

But I don't think Kevorkian really cares about that. He likes the attention, but really seems indifferent to issues of wealth and luxury.

Wesley, do you know what his financial status is? ...

2007-06-06T09:55:00.000-07:00

Wesley, do you know what his financial status is? In the 60 Minutes interview, they said he was receiving a pension of about $900 / month.

Is that all he has? Or did his legal fights bankrupt him?

Actually, it isn't a love of death, but a fear of ...

2007-06-06T09:50:00.000-07:00

Actually, it isn't a love of death, but a fear of and obsession with death that dates back to his med school days when he was given the moniker Dr. Death. That name is NOT from the 1990s.

The record is clear, and mostly in his own words.

"It's a front, and a mighty thin one at that. His ...

2007-06-06T09:47:00.000-07:00

"It's a front, and a mighty thin one at that. His first and only true love is death."

That's quite possible. But I don't know and I doubt you do either.

Since I don't know the motivations of people I know personally, let alone the ones I've never met, I refrain from stating what their true loves must be.

That's what Mengele said. That is what the "resear...

2007-06-06T09:44:00.000-07:00

That's what Mengele said. That is what the "researchers" in Tuskagee believed. Moreover, if you see what he wanted to research--as I quoted from his own book--it was pure quackery.

I really think we have lost our moral compass in this country.

Experimenting on the dead isn't the issue? Don't ...

2007-06-06T09:43:00.000-07:00

Experimenting on the dead isn't the issue? Don't you read carefully? HE WANTED TO EXPERIMENT ON THE LIVING BEFORE KILLING THEM. Big difference.